5 ms·

Basic income is for everyone, workers and the unemployed, rich and poor alike. Or at least it should be. Every dollar you earn should be a bonus, on top of basi

by drcube 11y ago

Basic income is for everyone, workers and the unemployed, rich and poor alike. Or at least it should be. Every dollar you earn should be a bonus, on top of basic income, or else like you said, you create disincentives to work. If you're referring to the "fairness" of the distributed tax burden, that's a problem with or without basic income.

anon4 11y ago
Lots of people care very strongly about personal property, including the money they earn and don't want the state to take what they earn and give it to "useless freeloaders". I think that, if you're advocating for what amounts to asking everyone to carry the entire world together including the people who can't "carry their own weight", you need to unapologetically sell a philosophy of why it's good to help others. You can't wave away "fairness" for people whose mental process is "I have mine, you have yours, I'll only give you from mine if you give me from yours at equal or greater value".
mamon 11y ago
I see your point, but think about one thing: how many people are stuck in a jobs they hate just because they have to pay the bills? If you give them basic income that covers all their basic needs then first thing they will do is they will quit their jobs. Also, I can imagine that many women would leave their jobs to stay at home with their children (or to finally give birth to one). That's at least few millions of people that would immediately loose incentive to work. Fairness of taxes is mainly theoretical exercise because this world isn't and never will be fair. So we need to deal with the fact that people don't like paying taxes and will do many things to avoid it, including quitting their jobs.
- perfunctory 11y ago
  I am sorry to say that but your view of the basic income sounds rather shallow. I would encourage you to read up on the subject.
  - privong 11y ago
    > I am sorry to say that but your view of the basic income sounds rather shallow. I would encourage you to read up on the subject. I'm not the parent, but can you suggest some good resources for doing so?
  - mamon 11y ago
    Actually, the part about mothers working less to spend more time with their children was actually noticed [1] And that was just an experiment, where participants knew it won't last forever. In real life effect might be stronger. What really is shallow is the understanding of how economy works by proponents of basic income. As I wrote earlier: to make it possible you need either robots or slaves, because most consumer goods don't grow on trees and even the ones that do grow on trees still need some manual labor to be done before they can be bought with your basic income money. Disincentivising work will make them less available and therefore more expensive. The last large scale implementation of unconditional basic income was in ancient Rome, and see how that ended for them :) [1]http://www.canadiansocialresearch.net/ssrgai.htm#Disposable http://www.canadiansocialresearch.net/ssrgai.htm#Disposable
    - DonaldFisk 11y ago
      If people's disposable income drops to basic income level because they quit their jobs, there will be less demand for non-essential consumer goods. The idea that people will voluntarily starve themselves to death because they're too lazy to work while fruit rots on or under trees is ludicrous.
- drcube 11y ago
  But why do they quit their jobs? If it's to start a business, educate themselves, obtain skills for landing a job they enjoy more, etc, then all those are good things, and not a downside to basic income. And if they're just too damn lazy to work, and are satisfied with whatever minimal amount of basic income they receive, and have no drive to do better, then maybe employers are better off without them?
- elementalest 11y ago
  While this system would allow for lazy people, it would also allow people to become free to pursue what they find interesting and worthwhile. Motivated, interested and passionate workers are more productive, creative, efficient and dedicated. I don't think our society could suddenly switch to a basic income system. However, I think a gradual change would allow for such a system to be implemented over time. I think proper welfare and healthcare are good places to start. Gradually adding to it, where people's who's jobs have become obsolete and they are getting too old to re-skill, can get support. Then people who simply lose their jobs from automation replacement or being obsolete, can seek for support. Eventually we can phase in the base income. If you are smart or lucky enough, you can get paid more. Otherwise you can pursue other aspects of life - entertainment probably being the most popular one. Now i do think getting the money to do this in the first place is problematic. The only way it would probably function, is if those who work get paid a LOT of money. Therefore the taxes obtained from them cover the rest of the populations base income. Now some would not like this because the few are essentially carrying the many. However, with the number of people and limited work, there will always be someone willing to work to get that money, or those who just have a pure passion for their work. Being highly competitive also means most people probably wont be able to hold down their job for a long period. Others will replace them as they are smarter/younger/better/lucky etc. Its not a perfect system, but it is probably better than the alternative we face in the next 10-30 years, with capitalisms heavily unbalanced wealth distribution and insufficient jobs to provide an income for people to survive on.
- DonaldFisk 11y ago
  If any jobs are so unpleasant that people voluntarily quit them en masse, employers will have to increase wages, automate, or eliminate those jobs. This is how a market is supposed to operate. Why is it a bad thing that women (or indeed men) look after their own children? Do people mind paying taxes? They'd mind a lot more if their country was invaded, members of their family were attacked, or they faced death because hospitals no longer existed.
  - mdpopescu 11y ago
    I mind paying taxes. I don't fear the boogeyman, the most likely entity to attack me is the state I'm paying taxes to, and I always paid for my medical care (state-run hospitals are a joke). What else you got? :)
- capisce 11y ago
  > how many people are stuck in a jobs they hate just because they have to pay the bills? If you give them basic income that covers all their basic needs then first thing they will do is they will quit their jobs. Sounds like slavery. Is it humane to have a system designed so that people are stuck doing work they hate just to avoid starvation and homelessness? When we could greatly improve overall wellbeing through increased automation and redistribution?
- zaccus 11y ago
  I don't see why people who hate their jobs, which means they probably aren't very effective at them, should have to work. What if everyone applying a job is someone who actually wants to and is able to do that job? That would make hiring a lot easier, and employees would be happier and more engaged. If someone wants to stay home and eat Cheetos every day, why should I care?

by drcube 11y ago

anon4 11y ago

Lots of people care very strongly about personal property, including the money they earn and don't want the state to take what they earn and give it to "useless freeloaders". I think that, if you're advocating for what amounts to asking everyone to carry the entire world together including the people who can't "carry their own weight", you need to unapologetically sell a philosophy of why it's good to help others. You can't wave away "fairness" for people whose mental process is "I have mine, you have yours, I'll only give you from mine if you give me from yours at equal or greater value".

mamon 11y ago

I see your point, but think about one thing: how many people are stuck in a jobs they hate just because they have to pay the bills? If you give them basic income that covers all their basic needs then first thing they will do is they will quit their jobs. Also, I can imagine that many women would leave their jobs to stay at home with their children (or to finally give birth to one). That's at least few millions of people that would immediately loose incentive to work. Fairness of taxes is mainly theoretical exercise because this world isn't and never will be fair. So we need to deal with the fact that people don't like paying taxes and will do many things to avoid it, including quitting their jobs.

perfunctory 11y ago
I am sorry to say that but your view of the basic income sounds rather shallow. I would encourage you to read up on the subject.
- privong 11y ago
  > I am sorry to say that but your view of the basic income sounds rather shallow. I would encourage you to read up on the subject. I'm not the parent, but can you suggest some good resources for doing so?
- mamon 11y ago
  Actually, the part about mothers working less to spend more time with their children was actually noticed [1] And that was just an experiment, where participants knew it won't last forever. In real life effect might be stronger. What really is shallow is the understanding of how economy works by proponents of basic income. As I wrote earlier: to make it possible you need either robots or slaves, because most consumer goods don't grow on trees and even the ones that do grow on trees still need some manual labor to be done before they can be bought with your basic income money. Disincentivising work will make them less available and therefore more expensive. The last large scale implementation of unconditional basic income was in ancient Rome, and see how that ended for them :) [1]http://www.canadiansocialresearch.net/ssrgai.htm#Disposable http://www.canadiansocialresearch.net/ssrgai.htm#Disposable
  - DonaldFisk 11y ago
    If people's disposable income drops to basic income level because they quit their jobs, there will be less demand for non-essential consumer goods. The idea that people will voluntarily starve themselves to death because they're too lazy to work while fruit rots on or under trees is ludicrous.
drcube 11y ago
But why do they quit their jobs? If it's to start a business, educate themselves, obtain skills for landing a job they enjoy more, etc, then all those are good things, and not a downside to basic income. And if they're just too damn lazy to work, and are satisfied with whatever minimal amount of basic income they receive, and have no drive to do better, then maybe employers are better off without them?
elementalest 11y ago
While this system would allow for lazy people, it would also allow people to become free to pursue what they find interesting and worthwhile. Motivated, interested and passionate workers are more productive, creative, efficient and dedicated. I don't think our society could suddenly switch to a basic income system. However, I think a gradual change would allow for such a system to be implemented over time. I think proper welfare and healthcare are good places to start. Gradually adding to it, where people's who's jobs have become obsolete and they are getting too old to re-skill, can get support. Then people who simply lose their jobs from automation replacement or being obsolete, can seek for support. Eventually we can phase in the base income. If you are smart or lucky enough, you can get paid more. Otherwise you can pursue other aspects of life - entertainment probably being the most popular one. Now i do think getting the money to do this in the first place is problematic. The only way it would probably function, is if those who work get paid a LOT of money. Therefore the taxes obtained from them cover the rest of the populations base income. Now some would not like this because the few are essentially carrying the many. However, with the number of people and limited work, there will always be someone willing to work to get that money, or those who just have a pure passion for their work. Being highly competitive also means most people probably wont be able to hold down their job for a long period. Others will replace them as they are smarter/younger/better/lucky etc. Its not a perfect system, but it is probably better than the alternative we face in the next 10-30 years, with capitalisms heavily unbalanced wealth distribution and insufficient jobs to provide an income for people to survive on.
DonaldFisk 11y ago
If any jobs are so unpleasant that people voluntarily quit them en masse, employers will have to increase wages, automate, or eliminate those jobs. This is how a market is supposed to operate. Why is it a bad thing that women (or indeed men) look after their own children? Do people mind paying taxes? They'd mind a lot more if their country was invaded, members of their family were attacked, or they faced death because hospitals no longer existed.
- mdpopescu 11y ago
  I mind paying taxes. I don't fear the boogeyman, the most likely entity to attack me is the state I'm paying taxes to, and I always paid for my medical care (state-run hospitals are a joke). What else you got? :)
capisce 11y ago
> how many people are stuck in a jobs they hate just because they have to pay the bills? If you give them basic income that covers all their basic needs then first thing they will do is they will quit their jobs. Sounds like slavery. Is it humane to have a system designed so that people are stuck doing work they hate just to avoid starvation and homelessness? When we could greatly improve overall wellbeing through increased automation and redistribution?
zaccus 11y ago
I don't see why people who hate their jobs, which means they probably aren't very effective at them, should have to work. What if everyone applying a job is someone who actually wants to and is able to do that job? That would make hiring a lot easier, and employees would be happier and more engaged. If someone wants to stay home and eat Cheetos every day, why should I care?