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A. OSX is not a single user system. It inherits from various Unixes, and no Unix has ever had nonprivileged writability on any directory under /usr. FHS does n

by quesera 11y ago

A. OSX is not a single user system. It inherits from various Unixes, and no Unix has ever had nonprivileged writability on any directory under /usr. FHS does not apply to OSX in any way. Why do people think so? Also, /Applications is not writable by nonprivileged users either! Agreed on ~"changes yield outrage", but in this case, it's just a software application vendor violating obvious historical and specific guidelines from software OS vendor, and people blaming OS vendor when things break. This perplexes me.

tptacek 11y ago
You might just as productively argue that there is no such thing as a modern single-user system, since Windows isn't that either. His point is pretty clear. OTOH: The debate here is a little confusing. What SIP is doing w/r/t/ /usr/local isn't unprecedented; securelevels and the immutable flag could have the same effect on OpenBSD all the way back in the 1990s.
- quesera 11y ago
  > You might just as productively argue that there is no such thing as a modern single-user system, since Windows isn't that either. His point is pretty clear. Correct, and nonprivileged users can't install software globally on Windows either. Because it's now a modern OS, and that's how things are done. For very good reasons. His point, as far as I can tell, amounts to: applications should be able to trash permissions on convenient directories and not have the OS complain or repair their damage. Perhaps I'm being ungenerous here? I apologize if so. On re read, I realize that tptacek is responding only to the SIP part of the discussion. OK, SIP is surprising to desktop computer users. But it's a good feature that requires a little adjustment to work with. But really not much, and none for the vast majority of users who don't muck with system directories.
  - tptacek 11y ago
    He's arguing that users should be able to elevate their privileges by supplying root's credentials and then create a simple directory without having to reboot. I more agree with you than with him, but his argument seems pretty straightforward.
    - quesera 11y ago
      Well, if you unwind far enough, I think the original discussion was about why Homebrew has trouble using /usr/local. Where "using" means "owning, adding git repos to, changing permissions on, etc". OSX suggests /usr/local as a good location to install software, but insists that the directory itself be owned by root, and protects the parent directory /usr under SIP. My assertion is that Homebrew is using /usr/local incorrectly (and in contravention to all expectation), and that blaming Apple for the problems thereby created is inappropriate. I also think SIP is a good thing.

by quesera 11y ago

tptacek 11y ago

You might just as productively argue that there is no such thing as a modern single-user system, since Windows isn't that either. His point is pretty clear. OTOH: The debate here is a little confusing. What SIP is doing w/r/t/ /usr/local isn't unprecedented; securelevels and the immutable flag could have the same effect on OpenBSD all the way back in the 1990s.

quesera 11y ago
> You might just as productively argue that there is no such thing as a modern single-user system, since Windows isn't that either. His point is pretty clear. Correct, and nonprivileged users can't install software globally on Windows either. Because it's now a modern OS, and that's how things are done. For very good reasons. His point, as far as I can tell, amounts to: applications should be able to trash permissions on convenient directories and not have the OS complain or repair their damage. Perhaps I'm being ungenerous here? I apologize if so. On re read, I realize that tptacek is responding only to the SIP part of the discussion. OK, SIP is surprising to desktop computer users. But it's a good feature that requires a little adjustment to work with. But really not much, and none for the vast majority of users who don't muck with system directories.
- tptacek 11y ago
  He's arguing that users should be able to elevate their privileges by supplying root's credentials and then create a simple directory without having to reboot. I more agree with you than with him, but his argument seems pretty straightforward.
  - quesera 11y ago
    Well, if you unwind far enough, I think the original discussion was about why Homebrew has trouble using /usr/local. Where "using" means "owning, adding git repos to, changing permissions on, etc". OSX suggests /usr/local as a good location to install software, but insists that the directory itself be owned by root, and protects the parent directory /usr under SIP. My assertion is that Homebrew is using /usr/local incorrectly (and in contravention to all expectation), and that blaming Apple for the problems thereby created is inappropriate. I also think SIP is a good thing.