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War? Not while we depend on China for rare earth elements. ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dih30mUexrA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dih30mUexrA ) edit: So

by pdkl95 11y ago

War? Not while we depend on China for rare earth elements. ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dih30mUexrA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dih30mUexrA ) edit: So I guess the people voting this down believe our failure to maintain a local source of rare earths makes war with China more likely? Our military (and GDP) depends on these elements, and China likes the profit they make selling them. These both make war much less likely.

hga 11y ago
One reason is that "rare" earths aren't really that rare, what's rare is First World countries that are willing to tolerate the mess of refining them, which roughly entails boiling the ore in acid a thousand times. What was even rarer was a willingness to sell them at a loss when the PRC was selling them cheaply, before they established export quotas and the world market prices for them reversed. See e.g. this article from 2011 which looks accurate to me: http://fortune.com/2011/11/18/molycorps-1-billion-rare-earth-gamble/ http://fortune.com/2011/11/18/molycorps-1-billion-rare-earth... As far as I know, the PRC doesn't have a long term monopoly on anything but the largest concentration of Han Chinese in the world, which is of course rather worthwhile.
- pdkl95 11y ago
  /sigh/ - I suppose I shouldn't have assumed that I could skip over the details of China's rare earth strategy. Of course they aren't "rare"; I'm obviously referring to China's cornered market on refinement. I also didn't claim anything about the future trends of the rare earth market. We could (and should) rebuild domestic sources, but that takes time and requires fighting regulation. I'm simply saying that I find it extremely unlikely that we would go to war with China when they are de facto a necessary part of military and industry supply chains. China wants the profit, and it would be stupid for us to start a war when reopening domestic mining and refinement industries would be cheaper.
  - hga 11y ago
    Except they didn't corner the market, aside from when they're willing to sell them cheaper than anyone else. E.g. the company that Fortune article focused on, Molycorp, stumbled in various ways and for various reasons, including lower prices because the PRC's initial restrictive actions were of course followed by counteractions, including recycling. On the company's web site, they say they're putting their US facility in maintenance mode, ready to resume if market conditions warrant it, and are fulfilling customer demand from the PRC and Estonia. So, no, in terms of rare earths they aren't a necessary part of our military and industrial supply chains. A trade embargo between us would hurt us both, and it would be devastating if they could interdict shipments from Taiwan, Japan and South Korea (one of the reasons we maintain an expensive military, although fab lines have to be exquisitely vulnerable), but otherwise at 0th approximation it's hard to distinguish your argument from those made just prior to The Great War AKA WWI. I'd also note that if we even had a complete trade embargo between the US and USSR I don't remember/remember reading of it. In 1980 Reagan campaigned on lifting Carter's grotesque grain embargo to the USSR, one of many pinpricks he made after they invaded Afghanistan and mightily embarrassed him.
jqm 11y ago
China isn't the only place with rare earth elements. Molycorp mine in Mountain Pass California for instance. The mine has been plagued with legal/financial problems, but the existence of rare earth elements that the US doesn't have are not the reason we don't go to war with China. To be cynical, if the US vitally needed those elements and China did indeed have all of them and was choking the supply off... at that point terrorists might suddenly appear in China requiring the US to send military troops to liberate the poor Chinese (and their rare earth elements).
- pdkl95 11y ago
  "If" the US vitally needs those elements? How much modern tech (or military hardware) can you name that doesn't require rare earths? > Molycorp Last I heard, they filed for bankruptcy, probably because of China cornering the refinement market. > The mine has been plagued with legal/financial problems Yes. The video I linked to was an attempt to work around those problems. It failed, but that doesn't mean a domestic source cannot happen in the future. for the rest, see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10310969 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10310969

by pdkl95 11y ago

hga 11y ago

One reason is that "rare" earths aren't really that rare, what's rare is First World countries that are willing to tolerate the mess of refining them, which roughly entails boiling the ore in acid a thousand times. What was even rarer was a willingness to sell them at a loss when the PRC was selling them cheaply, before they established export quotas and the world market prices for them reversed. See e.g. this article from 2011 which looks accurate to me: http://fortune.com/2011/11/18/molycorps-1-billion-rare-earth-gamble/ http://fortune.com/2011/11/18/molycorps-1-billion-rare-earth... As far as I know, the PRC doesn't have a long term monopoly on anything but the largest concentration of Han Chinese in the world, which is of course rather worthwhile.

pdkl95 11y ago
/sigh/ - I suppose I shouldn't have assumed that I could skip over the details of China's rare earth strategy. Of course they aren't "rare"; I'm obviously referring to China's cornered market on refinement. I also didn't claim anything about the future trends of the rare earth market. We could (and should) rebuild domestic sources, but that takes time and requires fighting regulation. I'm simply saying that I find it extremely unlikely that we would go to war with China when they are de facto a necessary part of military and industry supply chains. China wants the profit, and it would be stupid for us to start a war when reopening domestic mining and refinement industries would be cheaper.
- hga 11y ago
  Except they didn't corner the market, aside from when they're willing to sell them cheaper than anyone else. E.g. the company that Fortune article focused on, Molycorp, stumbled in various ways and for various reasons, including lower prices because the PRC's initial restrictive actions were of course followed by counteractions, including recycling. On the company's web site, they say they're putting their US facility in maintenance mode, ready to resume if market conditions warrant it, and are fulfilling customer demand from the PRC and Estonia. So, no, in terms of rare earths they aren't a necessary part of our military and industrial supply chains. A trade embargo between us would hurt us both, and it would be devastating if they could interdict shipments from Taiwan, Japan and South Korea (one of the reasons we maintain an expensive military, although fab lines have to be exquisitely vulnerable), but otherwise at 0th approximation it's hard to distinguish your argument from those made just prior to The Great War AKA WWI. I'd also note that if we even had a complete trade embargo between the US and USSR I don't remember/remember reading of it. In 1980 Reagan campaigned on lifting Carter's grotesque grain embargo to the USSR, one of many pinpricks he made after they invaded Afghanistan and mightily embarrassed him.

jqm 11y ago

China isn't the only place with rare earth elements. Molycorp mine in Mountain Pass California for instance. The mine has been plagued with legal/financial problems, but the existence of rare earth elements that the US doesn't have are not the reason we don't go to war with China. To be cynical, if the US vitally needed those elements and China did indeed have all of them and was choking the supply off... at that point terrorists might suddenly appear in China requiring the US to send military troops to liberate the poor Chinese (and their rare earth elements).

pdkl95 11y ago
"If" the US vitally needs those elements? How much modern tech (or military hardware) can you name that doesn't require rare earths? > Molycorp Last I heard, they filed for bankruptcy, probably because of China cornering the refinement market. > The mine has been plagued with legal/financial problems Yes. The video I linked to was an attempt to work around those problems. It failed, but that doesn't mean a domestic source cannot happen in the future. for the rest, see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10310969 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10310969