3 ms·

I completely agree with the noble goals you've called out, and I'll add two points: First, when is it truly undesirable to broaden your skills, to develop inta

I completely agree with the noble goals you've called out, and I'll add two points: First, when is it truly undesirable to broaden your skills, to develop intangible quality, to improve your abilities as a human being beyond a specific depth? I argue (and I know it's arguable) that it's always a positive. To some degree I think the market agrees with this and, without a clear answer to "what is a good education worth," has overvalued (or rather, overpriced) the unmeasurable intangible results of a college education, which is one of our problems. Second, I completely disagree that the modern undergraduate university accomplishes neither of these things. It is obscenely expensive (needs correction), but it is not "grotesque," it is not "hyper-social" in the derogatory sense (simply diversely social, which is neutral/positive), it is not a "playground" other than the type that nurtures minds and enhances opportunities for learning, it is not "cookie cutter" except in the sense of being an effective and repeatable system. The university deserves to survive, it deserves to flourish, and it is an institution deserving respect for the effect it has had and will continue to have on the rise of civilization and the improvement of society. Because it is both difficult to measure and easy to understand such an enormous impact, universities have become expensive. That is regrettable and needs recalibration from a more powerful entity (public universities have it right, but they rightfully need support from society). But don't think for a second that the castration of the university to an austere intellectualized minority luxury is the way forward for the institution of higher learning or for society itself. As civilization becomes more complex and more difficult to comprehend, we will only need more and better universities, and ones that continue in the tradition of the liberal arts—that we may continue to be human in the face of ever greater inhumanity. Save us all if we are required to measure that.

jordanpg 11y ago
I couldn't agree more about the intrinsic or potential value of the idealized university, and I've seen glimpses of that ideal in my small sliver of experience there. I was using hyperbole for rhetorical reasons, but the words were chosen deliberately. Grotesque: college athletics. Hyper-social: the Greek system, "hookup culture". Playground: grade inflation. All egregious, ubiquitous examples. Sure, there are many exceptions, but in my experience at decent to good campuses, these things are dominant influences, if not the definitive ones. This includes most of the great American campuses. (I don't know much about what it's like outside the US.) Universities cannot be serious places if they are filled with unserious people doing unserious things. No institution could.
- calinet6 11y ago
  I disagree, and I think you're projecting both judgement and a cognitive bias for an ideal situation for you that would never occur in reality. It's a sort of golden age or nirvana fallacy, looking back at universities of the past or your 'ideal university' as somehow better or more serious than the ones that exist today. For the past, at least, this wasn't true at all. If anything universities were were sillier, rowdier places. If it wasn't alcohol, it was other mischief and vice, more serious sports, and more pervasive greek systems. The offenses against seriousness you list aren't even that bad, to be honest. They suffer from a sort of 'vocal minority' effect, where they seem extremely loud and horrible, but in reality are just the outward projections of a minority percentage or a minority effect. A university is a microcosm of society. It has never been and will never be a completely serious place, because humans are not completely serious beings. Part of the glorious beauty and effectiveness of the university, even in its average form, is that it allows humans to be humans and to explore humanity; not only its serious aspects, but also its flaws, vices, and many varied possibilities. This is not a negative 'dominant influence,' but instead a highly functional, necessary, and intentional nod to the most effective development of a human being. Just look at it: there is somehow a great seriousness coming out of this crazy world of drinking, hyper-social behavior, hookups, greek systems, grade inflation, and college sports. This should tell you something: the whole experience of college and the seriousness of its intended result are not at odds, but instead—paradoxically in a sort of crazy zen-like relationship—necessary for one another to exist. There is a profound recognition that a serious, well-balanced human being capable of greatness is not constructed by seriousness itself, nor of serious places, but rather by a plentiful variety of experience. It is not the aim of universities to be serious places. They know better. They understand the complexities of culture, of society, and of the development of young people at a very critical stage of life. In the end, they most certainly achieve serious results very consistently—not in spite of their lack of seriousness, but in large part because of it, and especially thanks to an appreciation for it. And on an anecdotal note, I believe in universities strongly because I did indeed experience a great one, and I know many people who had their own great experiences as well. At my university, I saw and experienced all of the things you mention. All of these unserious offenses should have distracted me from my academic focus, but they did not. They only enhanced it and helped form me into the person I am today, and I strongly, unequivocally believe that I am better for it.

jordanpg 11y ago

I couldn't agree more about the intrinsic or potential value of the idealized university, and I've seen glimpses of that ideal in my small sliver of experience there. I was using hyperbole for rhetorical reasons, but the words were chosen deliberately. Grotesque: college athletics. Hyper-social: the Greek system, "hookup culture". Playground: grade inflation. All egregious, ubiquitous examples. Sure, there are many exceptions, but in my experience at decent to good campuses, these things are dominant influences, if not the definitive ones. This includes most of the great American campuses. (I don't know much about what it's like outside the US.) Universities cannot be serious places if they are filled with unserious people doing unserious things. No institution could.

calinet6 11y ago
I disagree, and I think you're projecting both judgement and a cognitive bias for an ideal situation for you that would never occur in reality. It's a sort of golden age or nirvana fallacy, looking back at universities of the past or your 'ideal university' as somehow better or more serious than the ones that exist today. For the past, at least, this wasn't true at all. If anything universities were were sillier, rowdier places. If it wasn't alcohol, it was other mischief and vice, more serious sports, and more pervasive greek systems. The offenses against seriousness you list aren't even that bad, to be honest. They suffer from a sort of 'vocal minority' effect, where they seem extremely loud and horrible, but in reality are just the outward projections of a minority percentage or a minority effect. A university is a microcosm of society. It has never been and will never be a completely serious place, because humans are not completely serious beings. Part of the glorious beauty and effectiveness of the university, even in its average form, is that it allows humans to be humans and to explore humanity; not only its serious aspects, but also its flaws, vices, and many varied possibilities. This is not a negative 'dominant influence,' but instead a highly functional, necessary, and intentional nod to the most effective development of a human being. Just look at it: there is somehow a great seriousness coming out of this crazy world of drinking, hyper-social behavior, hookups, greek systems, grade inflation, and college sports. This should tell you something: the whole experience of college and the seriousness of its intended result are not at odds, but instead—paradoxically in a sort of crazy zen-like relationship—necessary for one another to exist. There is a profound recognition that a serious, well-balanced human being capable of greatness is not constructed by seriousness itself, nor of serious places, but rather by a plentiful variety of experience. It is not the aim of universities to be serious places. They know better. They understand the complexities of culture, of society, and of the development of young people at a very critical stage of life. In the end, they most certainly achieve serious results very consistently—not in spite of their lack of seriousness, but in large part because of it, and especially thanks to an appreciation for it. And on an anecdotal note, I believe in universities strongly because I did indeed experience a great one, and I know many people who had their own great experiences as well. At my university, I saw and experienced all of the things you mention. All of these unserious offenses should have distracted me from my academic focus, but they did not. They only enhanced it and helped form me into the person I am today, and I strongly, unequivocally believe that I am better for it.