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Can you point to a terrorist attack they've disrupted that they were not the primary initiators of in the first place? What about a bad government that they've

Can you point to a terrorist attack they've disrupted that they were not the primary initiators of in the first place? What about a bad government that they've overthrown that hasn't been replaced with a worse one? What about a social/cultural program that has had a positive effect? What about a surveillance program that hasn't been abused for coercion and personal or corporate profit?

Karunamon 11y ago
In complete fairness, the very nature of those operations ensure that, even if successful, you likely wouldn't hear of that success (or if you did, you wouldn't attribute it to the operation) Not excusing this by any means, in fact I'd say this is grounds for much more comprehensive oversight and transparency, but right now, it is what it is.
- Zigurd 11y ago
  That's just not true, especially in the case of domestic surveillance. We're not - yet, anyway - droning people based on meta data within the US. What terrorism cases there have been have been astoundingly weak and cooked-up using informants acting as provocateurs and enablers.
  - Kalium 11y ago
    I believe you misunderstood the comment to which you are replying. Your argument is that the cases and events we hear of and know of are disastrous at best. Parent is stating that there is a very large bias in what cases and events we hear of, to the point where a lack of visibility into the data makes meaningful analysis impossible.
    - Zigurd 11y ago
      No, seriously, are you telling me that the lame-ass prosecutions and ginned-up FBI cases are hiding valor and competency keeping us safe from terrist supervillains?? That's a hell of a good cover story. I was totally convinced.
      - Karunamon 11y ago
        Are you telling me those cases (which we disagree on the validity of, BTW) are the only ones that exist?
        Zigurd 11y ago
        Are there secret trials in the US? Secret extra-judicial punishments? If not, then yeah, those are the cases the FBI decided deserved their resources.
        Kalium 11y ago
        Failures are loud. Intelligence successes are generally silent. There's literally no way for us to know. It's unwise to assert a universal negative in the face of the unknowable.
        Zigurd 11y ago
        You are also asserting that there is a secret system of successful criminal investigation and punishment of terrorists, INSIDE the US, separate, and vastly more competent the the visible cases the FBI has publicized. You are confusing "24" with reality.
        Kalium 11y ago
        I am not, have not, and shall not assert any such thing. I bid you good day.
dsr_ 11y ago
Are you interpreting my comment to be supportive of intelligence agencies?

Karunamon 11y ago

In complete fairness, the very nature of those operations ensure that, even if successful, you likely wouldn't hear of that success (or if you did, you wouldn't attribute it to the operation) Not excusing this by any means, in fact I'd say this is grounds for much more comprehensive oversight and transparency, but right now, it is what it is.

Zigurd 11y ago
That's just not true, especially in the case of domestic surveillance. We're not - yet, anyway - droning people based on meta data within the US. What terrorism cases there have been have been astoundingly weak and cooked-up using informants acting as provocateurs and enablers.
- Kalium 11y ago
  I believe you misunderstood the comment to which you are replying. Your argument is that the cases and events we hear of and know of are disastrous at best. Parent is stating that there is a very large bias in what cases and events we hear of, to the point where a lack of visibility into the data makes meaningful analysis impossible.
  - Zigurd 11y ago
    No, seriously, are you telling me that the lame-ass prosecutions and ginned-up FBI cases are hiding valor and competency keeping us safe from terrist supervillains?? That's a hell of a good cover story. I was totally convinced.
    - Karunamon 11y ago
      Are you telling me those cases (which we disagree on the validity of, BTW) are the only ones that exist?
      - Zigurd 11y ago
        Are there secret trials in the US? Secret extra-judicial punishments? If not, then yeah, those are the cases the FBI decided deserved their resources.
        Kalium 11y ago
        Failures are loud. Intelligence successes are generally silent. There's literally no way for us to know. It's unwise to assert a universal negative in the face of the unknowable.
        Zigurd 11y ago
        You are also asserting that there is a secret system of successful criminal investigation and punishment of terrorists, INSIDE the US, separate, and vastly more competent the the visible cases the FBI has publicized. You are confusing "24" with reality.
        Kalium 11y ago
        I am not, have not, and shall not assert any such thing. I bid you good day.

dsr_ 11y ago

Are you interpreting my comment to be supportive of intelligence agencies?