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>SUPPORT GROUPS HELP cult and gang members break free of their former lives. Alcoholics and Narcotics Anonymous help addicts overcome their dependencies. And no

>SUPPORT GROUPS HELP cult and gang members break free of their former lives. Alcoholics and Narcotics Anonymous help addicts overcome their dependencies. And now one group of privacy campaigners wants to offer its target audience an escape route for what it sees as a equally insidious trap: Their jobs working for intelligence agencies like the NSA. I doubt most people working in this field think they need some kind of AA support group because they are brainwashed and need an escape plan. These people are perfectly sane, reasonable and content with what they are doing. I don't see how hard that is to understand, that some folks might hold a different worldview about surveillance than you do, and that in fact they are not idiots.

Karunamon 11y ago
Need of a support group or working for the surveillance apparatus does not imply idiocy, no more than you just implied being addicted to a substance implies the same. If someone is perfectly content with what they're doing, then this is not for them. Simple stuff. But it's a near certainty there are people in there who are not content with what they're doing, who think it's varying degrees of wrong but keep doing it anyways because job, family, patriotism, whatever. I would like to see our society stigmatize these kinds of jobs the same way an alcoholic is, FWIW. As in, if you're getting hired somewhere, having intelligence connections on your resumé is grounds for having it thrown in the trash. You need not be a moustache-twirling Saturday morning cartoon villain to be complicit in perpetrating a great wrong. And as far as brainwashing goes, you get wonderful things like this[1] being circulated in internal newsletters. It's bald-faced, pro surveillance propaganda designed to get those who it's intended for to stop thinking so hard about it. [1]: https://edwardsnowden.com/2015/08/25/the-sigint-philosopher-is-back-with-a-new-face/ https://edwardsnowden.com/2015/08/25/the-sigint-philosopher-...
- pdabbadabba 11y ago
  > Need of a support group or working for the surveillance apparatus does not imply idiocy, no more than you just implied being addicted to a substance implies the same. This is not a fair reading of GP's comment. The reason he said that people working for the NSA are not idiots is because people tend to imply that the only reason they continue working at the NSA is that they are idiots. GP was pointing out that there are other possible reasons, including that they are of the considered opinion that what they are doing is not wrong. For addictive substances there is an obvious alternative reason why people might need a support group to help quit: addiction! But I don't think anyone argues that NSA employees are addicted to snooping, so one is compelled to search for an alternative explanation.
  - fit2rule 11y ago
    >GP was pointing out that there are other possible reasons, including that they are of the considered opinion that what they are doing is not wrong. And that would be sign of involvement in a cult, because that is how cults work. There are no human activities immune to the proclivity towards so-called reasoned association with idealistic/authoritarian ideology as a means of life experience. And it is precisely because of this fact that we must not allow the intelligence apparatus to gain so much ground in terms of having control over society. You might think that its okay to have spymasters, spying on everyone. But in a culture of effective, total secrecy between a people and its masters, who are actually supposed to be serving the people, there is much, much danger. Offering those 'in the cult' a way to re-integrate with society is the very first door towards resolution. If those doors are closed, we have the conditions ripe for exploitation by those who are, in fact, masters of infiltration, usurpation and total control over any human group. This is the power that the NSA/GCHQ cult-members have today.
    - pjc50 11y ago
      You cannot do politics by saying "everyone who disagrees with me is in a cult". That's pretty much exactly what McCarthyism was.
      - Karunamon 11y ago
        You can overload cult with whatever psychosemantic meanings you wish, but let's compare the NSA's behavior with a checklist of cult behavior: [X] The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law. - "Keeping the US safe" über alles, even the law and the wishes of society. [X] Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished. - Directly corroborated by Snowden [X] The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society. - Snowden again, and to a lesser extent, the leaked newsletter from earlier. [X] The leader is not accountable to any authorities - NSA lied before congress. Zero accountability. Also the "loveint" thing. [X] The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. - See: Every time an NSA spokesperson makes a statement [X] The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members. - See: Recruiting ads, the newsletter, etc. List from [1], and not including things I either couldn't substantiate or didn't think fit. [1]: http://www.csj.org/infoserv_cult101/checklis.htm http://www.csj.org/infoserv_cult101/checklis.htm
- caskance 11y ago
  >I would like to see our society stigmatize these kinds of jobs the same way an alcoholic is, FWIW. As in, if you're getting hired somewhere, having intelligence connections on your resumé is grounds for having it thrown in the trash. AKA guarantee that people working there keep working there?
  - mapt 11y ago
    I suspect their resumes already look a bit like this: 10 years of experience in $redacted 5 years of writing operational manuals for OMS-SPEC-DCPINET 2 years performing $redacted for BLUE SPARROW 3 years as a project manager specializing in coordinating teams of $redacted for challenges like $redacted, $redacted, and ANST-PRMCON Kind of limits your options unless you're selling services to someone that's already within that sphere of influence and has both expectations for this sort of thing, and has clearance to know what some of them are.
    - simoncion 11y ago
      I did programming work for a US defense contractor in the distant past. Had I been staying in the industry, and were I interested in moving to a new company, my resume would have looked more or less like your example. When I moved out of the industry, my resume focused on what I did and what I learned as part of the work whose details I can never talk about. The thing about programming on classified projects is that it's pretty much exactly like programming on unclassified projects, but with added data handling, reporting, and facility security headaches.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- walshemj 11y ago
  Where do you draw the line then? would you include Google et all the local cops. And for some one who left redit in a huff because they clamped down on hate speech your a fine one to talk about eithics
dsr_ 11y ago
If you sincerely hold the opinion that intelligence agencies do more harm than good, this is a perfectly reasonable method of communicating that.
- cryoshon 11y ago
  Can you point to a terrorist attack they've disrupted that they were not the primary initiators of in the first place? What about a bad government that they've overthrown that hasn't been replaced with a worse one? What about a social/cultural program that has had a positive effect? What about a surveillance program that hasn't been abused for coercion and personal or corporate profit?
  - Karunamon 11y ago
    In complete fairness, the very nature of those operations ensure that, even if successful, you likely wouldn't hear of that success (or if you did, you wouldn't attribute it to the operation) Not excusing this by any means, in fact I'd say this is grounds for much more comprehensive oversight and transparency, but right now, it is what it is.
    - Zigurd 11y ago
      That's just not true, especially in the case of domestic surveillance. We're not - yet, anyway - droning people based on meta data within the US. What terrorism cases there have been have been astoundingly weak and cooked-up using informants acting as provocateurs and enablers.
      - Kalium 11y ago
        I believe you misunderstood the comment to which you are replying. Your argument is that the cases and events we hear of and know of are disastrous at best. Parent is stating that there is a very large bias in what cases and events we hear of, to the point where a lack of visibility into the data makes meaningful analysis impossible.
mtgx 11y ago
Perhaps most are like that, but it's likely that a significant number of them could also be there mostly for the money and because they were lured there in their early career with the promise of "doing something cool", but then became disappointed by what they were told to do. However, they don't want to say anything because they don't want to have to flea to Russia to do it or go through what Thomas Drake went through.
JupiterMoon 11y ago
Many substance addicted people don't think they need help because they think that they are in control and not addicts. This doesn't stop AA/NA from being valuable to those that do realise that they are not in control.
rhino369 11y ago
And, practically, they all have great exit options and know it. In fact, one of the biggest struggles for the intelligence community is keeping talented people when your salary maxes out at like 120-150k on the GS scale.
fit2rule 11y ago
>I doubt .. they are brainwashed and need an escape plan. I don't know. Have you seen the brainwashing program that GCHQ recruits go through? I'm positive that these groups have militarized the mind-control techniques that society has to offer - it is after all, what the 'warrior-elite classes' do with all of societys' technologies: weaponize it.
omouse 11y ago
These people are perfectly sane, reasonable and content with what they are doing That could be said of cult members, gang members, alcoholics, crack addicts, and others. I'm glad a support group like this exists. Some people need help getting out of situations that are otherwise reasonable. Some of them may want a regular job but are unsure how to switch careers, maybe there's some questions on how clearances work if they want to work for a different government department or if that's event possible, etc.
- XorNot 11y ago
  Support groups aren't attended or helpful to people who don't think what they're doing is having a negative impact on their life. Plenty of fully functional drug users out there - more then a few likely on this very forum.
ixtli 11y ago
Implying people in a bad place are idiots is mean and actually keeps people from getting the help they need.
CamperBob2 11y ago
I don't see how hard that is to understand, that some folks might hold a different worldview about surveillance than you do, and that in fact they are not idiots. You're right, they aren't "idiots." The correct term, at least in the US, is "criminals." They have no more right to install a Narus box at the local telephone switching station than I do.
- walshemj 11y ago
  Err not to get all Wikipedia would you like to provide some proof of that assertion.
  - CamperBob2 11y ago
    Legally, it would come down to duelling court decisions, I'm afraid. I believe your side is currently winning, but watch this space. Morally, the answer is either obvious or it's not, and all the Wikipedia citations in the world don't tend to sway existing opinions.
lolyouareanazi 11y ago
I doubt most people working in this field think they need some kind of AA support group because they are brainwashed and need an escape plan. These people are perfectly sane, reasonable and content with what they are doing. I don't see how hard that is to understand, that some folks might hold a different worldview about mass killing of Jews than you do, and that in fact they are not idiots. Disgusting and an indictment of HN that you take top vote, probably because of puppet accounts.
current_call 11y ago
I don't see how hard that is to understand, that some folks might hold a different worldview about surveillance than you do, and that in fact they are not idiots. Their worldview isn't just different; it's bad. It's different and bad.

Karunamon 11y ago

Need of a support group or working for the surveillance apparatus does not imply idiocy, no more than you just implied being addicted to a substance implies the same. If someone is perfectly content with what they're doing, then this is not for them. Simple stuff. But it's a near certainty there are people in there who are not content with what they're doing, who think it's varying degrees of wrong but keep doing it anyways because job, family, patriotism, whatever. I would like to see our society stigmatize these kinds of jobs the same way an alcoholic is, FWIW. As in, if you're getting hired somewhere, having intelligence connections on your resumé is grounds for having it thrown in the trash. You need not be a moustache-twirling Saturday morning cartoon villain to be complicit in perpetrating a great wrong. And as far as brainwashing goes, you get wonderful things like this[1] being circulated in internal newsletters. It's bald-faced, pro surveillance propaganda designed to get those who it's intended for to stop thinking so hard about it. [1]: https://edwardsnowden.com/2015/08/25/the-sigint-philosopher-is-back-with-a-new-face/ https://edwardsnowden.com/2015/08/25/the-sigint-philosopher-...

pdabbadabba 11y ago
> Need of a support group or working for the surveillance apparatus does not imply idiocy, no more than you just implied being addicted to a substance implies the same. This is not a fair reading of GP's comment. The reason he said that people working for the NSA are not idiots is because people tend to imply that the only reason they continue working at the NSA is that they are idiots. GP was pointing out that there are other possible reasons, including that they are of the considered opinion that what they are doing is not wrong. For addictive substances there is an obvious alternative reason why people might need a support group to help quit: addiction! But I don't think anyone argues that NSA employees are addicted to snooping, so one is compelled to search for an alternative explanation.
- fit2rule 11y ago
  >GP was pointing out that there are other possible reasons, including that they are of the considered opinion that what they are doing is not wrong. And that would be sign of involvement in a cult, because that is how cults work. There are no human activities immune to the proclivity towards so-called reasoned association with idealistic/authoritarian ideology as a means of life experience. And it is precisely because of this fact that we must not allow the intelligence apparatus to gain so much ground in terms of having control over society. You might think that its okay to have spymasters, spying on everyone. But in a culture of effective, total secrecy between a people and its masters, who are actually supposed to be serving the people, there is much, much danger. Offering those 'in the cult' a way to re-integrate with society is the very first door towards resolution. If those doors are closed, we have the conditions ripe for exploitation by those who are, in fact, masters of infiltration, usurpation and total control over any human group. This is the power that the NSA/GCHQ cult-members have today.
  - pjc50 11y ago
    You cannot do politics by saying "everyone who disagrees with me is in a cult". That's pretty much exactly what McCarthyism was.
    - Karunamon 11y ago
      You can overload cult with whatever psychosemantic meanings you wish, but let's compare the NSA's behavior with a checklist of cult behavior: [X] The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law. - "Keeping the US safe" über alles, even the law and the wishes of society. [X] Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished. - Directly corroborated by Snowden [X] The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society. - Snowden again, and to a lesser extent, the leaked newsletter from earlier. [X] The leader is not accountable to any authorities - NSA lied before congress. Zero accountability. Also the "loveint" thing. [X] The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. - See: Every time an NSA spokesperson makes a statement [X] The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members. - See: Recruiting ads, the newsletter, etc. List from [1], and not including things I either couldn't substantiate or didn't think fit. [1]: http://www.csj.org/infoserv_cult101/checklis.htm http://www.csj.org/infoserv_cult101/checklis.htm
caskance 11y ago
>I would like to see our society stigmatize these kinds of jobs the same way an alcoholic is, FWIW. As in, if you're getting hired somewhere, having intelligence connections on your resumé is grounds for having it thrown in the trash. AKA guarantee that people working there keep working there?
- mapt 11y ago
  I suspect their resumes already look a bit like this: 10 years of experience in $redacted 5 years of writing operational manuals for OMS-SPEC-DCPINET 2 years performing $redacted for BLUE SPARROW 3 years as a project manager specializing in coordinating teams of $redacted for challenges like $redacted, $redacted, and ANST-PRMCON Kind of limits your options unless you're selling services to someone that's already within that sphere of influence and has both expectations for this sort of thing, and has clearance to know what some of them are.
  - simoncion 11y ago
    I did programming work for a US defense contractor in the distant past. Had I been staying in the industry, and were I interested in moving to a new company, my resume would have looked more or less like your example. When I moved out of the industry, my resume focused on what I did and what I learned as part of the work whose details I can never talk about. The thing about programming on classified projects is that it's pretty much exactly like programming on unclassified projects, but with added data handling, reporting, and facility security headaches.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
walshemj 11y ago
Where do you draw the line then? would you include Google et all the local cops. And for some one who left redit in a huff because they clamped down on hate speech your a fine one to talk about eithics

dsr_ 11y ago

If you sincerely hold the opinion that intelligence agencies do more harm than good, this is a perfectly reasonable method of communicating that.

cryoshon 11y ago
Can you point to a terrorist attack they've disrupted that they were not the primary initiators of in the first place? What about a bad government that they've overthrown that hasn't been replaced with a worse one? What about a social/cultural program that has had a positive effect? What about a surveillance program that hasn't been abused for coercion and personal or corporate profit?
- Karunamon 11y ago
  In complete fairness, the very nature of those operations ensure that, even if successful, you likely wouldn't hear of that success (or if you did, you wouldn't attribute it to the operation) Not excusing this by any means, in fact I'd say this is grounds for much more comprehensive oversight and transparency, but right now, it is what it is.
  - Zigurd 11y ago
    That's just not true, especially in the case of domestic surveillance. We're not - yet, anyway - droning people based on meta data within the US. What terrorism cases there have been have been astoundingly weak and cooked-up using informants acting as provocateurs and enablers.
    - Kalium 11y ago
      I believe you misunderstood the comment to which you are replying. Your argument is that the cases and events we hear of and know of are disastrous at best. Parent is stating that there is a very large bias in what cases and events we hear of, to the point where a lack of visibility into the data makes meaningful analysis impossible.

mtgx 11y ago

Perhaps most are like that, but it's likely that a significant number of them could also be there mostly for the money and because they were lured there in their early career with the promise of "doing something cool", but then became disappointed by what they were told to do. However, they don't want to say anything because they don't want to have to flea to Russia to do it or go through what Thomas Drake went through.

JupiterMoon 11y ago

Many substance addicted people don't think they need help because they think that they are in control and not addicts. This doesn't stop AA/NA from being valuable to those that do realise that they are not in control.

rhino369 11y ago

And, practically, they all have great exit options and know it. In fact, one of the biggest struggles for the intelligence community is keeping talented people when your salary maxes out at like 120-150k on the GS scale.

fit2rule 11y ago

>I doubt .. they are brainwashed and need an escape plan. I don't know. Have you seen the brainwashing program that GCHQ recruits go through? I'm positive that these groups have militarized the mind-control techniques that society has to offer - it is after all, what the 'warrior-elite classes' do with all of societys' technologies: weaponize it.

omouse 11y ago

These people are perfectly sane, reasonable and content with what they are doing That could be said of cult members, gang members, alcoholics, crack addicts, and others. I'm glad a support group like this exists. Some people need help getting out of situations that are otherwise reasonable. Some of them may want a regular job but are unsure how to switch careers, maybe there's some questions on how clearances work if they want to work for a different government department or if that's event possible, etc.

XorNot 11y ago
Support groups aren't attended or helpful to people who don't think what they're doing is having a negative impact on their life. Plenty of fully functional drug users out there - more then a few likely on this very forum.

ixtli 11y ago

Implying people in a bad place are idiots is mean and actually keeps people from getting the help they need.

CamperBob2 11y ago

I don't see how hard that is to understand, that some folks might hold a different worldview about surveillance than you do, and that in fact they are not idiots. You're right, they aren't "idiots." The correct term, at least in the US, is "criminals." They have no more right to install a Narus box at the local telephone switching station than I do.

walshemj 11y ago
Err not to get all Wikipedia would you like to provide some proof of that assertion.
- CamperBob2 11y ago
  Legally, it would come down to duelling court decisions, I'm afraid. I believe your side is currently winning, but watch this space. Morally, the answer is either obvious or it's not, and all the Wikipedia citations in the world don't tend to sway existing opinions.

lolyouareanazi 11y ago

I doubt most people working in this field think they need some kind of AA support group because they are brainwashed and need an escape plan. These people are perfectly sane, reasonable and content with what they are doing. I don't see how hard that is to understand, that some folks might hold a different worldview about mass killing of Jews than you do, and that in fact they are not idiots. Disgusting and an indictment of HN that you take top vote, probably because of puppet accounts.

current_call 11y ago

I don't see how hard that is to understand, that some folks might hold a different worldview about surveillance than you do, and that in fact they are not idiots. Their worldview isn't just different; it's bad. It's different and bad.