4 ms·

Scott Alexander (of slatestarcodex) once wrote about medical ethics[1]: > Listen up, this will be on the test. You need to help patients, not hurt them. You ne

by chroma 11y ago

Scott Alexander (of slatestarcodex) once wrote about medical ethics[1]: > Listen up, this will be on the test. You need to help patients, not hurt them. You need to be responsible. Try to avoid being irresponsible. Try to act professionally, and to be a positive asset to society. Don't abuse nurses. If someone asks you do to something unethical, tell them you won't. Did I mention you need to help patients, and not hurt them? > If reading that paragraph seemed like a waste of your time, imagine how I feel after attending the three hour lecture version. Engineering ethics would be a similar waste of time. Good people don't need courses to know that cheating emissions tests is wrong. Bad people won't be swayed by a three hour lecture. Here's an idea that would be more effective at reducing future harmful software: Run git/svn/hg blame to see who wrote the emissions-dodging code. Then arrest those people and charge them with crimes. 1. Against medical ethics http://squid314.livejournal.com/285785.html http://squid314.livejournal.com/285785.html

SilasX 11y ago
That's sounds like an argument against "The problem here is people not knowing what's ethical." And accomplishes it, because the problem pretty clearly isn't that. But the point still stands, that there should be some coordination among programmers to ensure that e.g. when someone is asked to do this, they have a group to fall back on, who's willing to help him/her out and boycott this employer.
- ams6110 11y ago
  If you don't have the spine to say "no, that's wrong, I won't do it" as a software engineer then I'm not sure a group is going to help you out. Software engineers who are any good at all can find work easily. They are among the last people who should feel held hostage by a job. If your personal ethics are not enough, I don't see how a group will help.
  - x0x0 11y ago
    Sure, if you're a teenager or 23 year old who shares an apartment and has no dependents and no debt. Try that attitude on for size if you have a family that depends on your income, or you live in a city that isn't a tech hotspot, or you or your spouse or children have medical issues and depend on your medical insurance. You can't pay the rent or mortgage with ethics. There's lots of towns even in America where there are only a handful of high tech employers so no, you don't have alternatives. Unless you consider moving, which can easily cost $15k in moving costs and tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars in housing costs to be free. Not to mention the disruption to friends, family, and social networks caused by moving. Or care arrangements -- grandparents babysitting is close to free; daycare can easily be $400/week/child (or $600/week/child for under 2 y/o) in sf.
    - caskance 11y ago
      Have you really seen an employer not willing to pay relocation costs for software engineers? I haven't.
      - x0x0 11y ago
        Yes (as would you if you bothered to look), and plenty more offer relocation bonuses of eg $5k which (1) will be taxed, and (2) are wildly insufficient unless you're basically living on a futon. For a family that needs a trip to house hunt and has furniture for 3-4 people, an actual relocation can very easily cost $15k ($3k airfare/hotels/meals/babysitting for 3-4 days in the new city to house or apartment hunt; $10k move for 3 bedroom house + car; apartment lease termination / house selling costs; other services shutdown plus startup in the new city).
        caskance 11y ago
        I'm aware how much relocation costs. It's still less than what the developer costs you in a month.
erikpukinskis 11y ago
I would love to teach a software ethics course, and it wouldn't be me standing up saying "be good" over and over. We would study contemporary ethics questions: - what should you do if your government demands you secretly backdoor a specific user? - what if your easiest recruiting channels yield a higher proportion of white males than other, costlier recruiting channels do? - if your startup is struggling to even survive, should you invest time in infrastructure that protects users' privacy from your employees? - how do you find nonprofits and companies that are aligned with your values and need your help? Those are just four questions off the top of my head. I think there are plenty of thugs to talk about to fill a semester, let alone an hour.
- kbenson 11y ago
  I would pass on attending your class, but I wouldn't mind watching a feed of the proceedings. The fistfights would be especially entertaining.
- chroma 11y ago
  > - what should you do if your government demands you secretly backdoor a specific user? They've got a warrant or a court order? OK. > - what if your easiest recruiting channels yield a higher proportion of white males than other, costlier recruiting channels do? If you're a good person, you try to correct for that. If you're a money-grubbing sociopath, you try to correct for that. This may sound unusual, but think about it from the sociopath's point of view: If other companies are neglecting some potential candidates, you can hire those people for less pay. Recruiting is cheap compared to salaries, so it's worth the upfront cost. In the long run, even if everyone is a money-grubbing sociopath, all demographics end up being paid the same. > - if your startup is struggling to even survive, should you invest time in infrastructure that protects users' privacy from your employees? Probably not. A dead company can't defend users' privacy very well. Also, assets (such as user data) tend to get sold off when a company shuts down. Best is the enemy of good, and all that. > - how do you find nonprofits and companies that are aligned with your values and need your help? Givewell.[1] These are not hard questions to answer. More importantly: Your hypothetical course, even if taken by every software engineer, would not have prevented the Volkswagen emissions cheating. That was obviously wrong, but the people involved didn't care. 1. http://www.givewell.org/ http://www.givewell.org/
x0x0 11y ago
The point isn't ethics courses. The point is institutional protection for engineers who are ordered to do unethical things and refuse.

by chroma 11y ago

SilasX 11y ago

That's sounds like an argument against "The problem here is people not knowing what's ethical." And accomplishes it, because the problem pretty clearly isn't that. But the point still stands, that there should be some coordination among programmers to ensure that e.g. when someone is asked to do this, they have a group to fall back on, who's willing to help him/her out and boycott this employer.

ams6110 11y ago
If you don't have the spine to say "no, that's wrong, I won't do it" as a software engineer then I'm not sure a group is going to help you out. Software engineers who are any good at all can find work easily. They are among the last people who should feel held hostage by a job. If your personal ethics are not enough, I don't see how a group will help.
- x0x0 11y ago
  Sure, if you're a teenager or 23 year old who shares an apartment and has no dependents and no debt. Try that attitude on for size if you have a family that depends on your income, or you live in a city that isn't a tech hotspot, or you or your spouse or children have medical issues and depend on your medical insurance. You can't pay the rent or mortgage with ethics. There's lots of towns even in America where there are only a handful of high tech employers so no, you don't have alternatives. Unless you consider moving, which can easily cost $15k in moving costs and tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars in housing costs to be free. Not to mention the disruption to friends, family, and social networks caused by moving. Or care arrangements -- grandparents babysitting is close to free; daycare can easily be $400/week/child (or $600/week/child for under 2 y/o) in sf.
  - caskance 11y ago
    Have you really seen an employer not willing to pay relocation costs for software engineers? I haven't.
    - x0x0 11y ago
      Yes (as would you if you bothered to look), and plenty more offer relocation bonuses of eg $5k which (1) will be taxed, and (2) are wildly insufficient unless you're basically living on a futon. For a family that needs a trip to house hunt and has furniture for 3-4 people, an actual relocation can very easily cost $15k ($3k airfare/hotels/meals/babysitting for 3-4 days in the new city to house or apartment hunt; $10k move for 3 bedroom house + car; apartment lease termination / house selling costs; other services shutdown plus startup in the new city).
      - caskance 11y ago
        I'm aware how much relocation costs. It's still less than what the developer costs you in a month.

erikpukinskis 11y ago

I would love to teach a software ethics course, and it wouldn't be me standing up saying "be good" over and over. We would study contemporary ethics questions: - what should you do if your government demands you secretly backdoor a specific user? - what if your easiest recruiting channels yield a higher proportion of white males than other, costlier recruiting channels do? - if your startup is struggling to even survive, should you invest time in infrastructure that protects users' privacy from your employees? - how do you find nonprofits and companies that are aligned with your values and need your help? Those are just four questions off the top of my head. I think there are plenty of thugs to talk about to fill a semester, let alone an hour.

kbenson 11y ago
I would pass on attending your class, but I wouldn't mind watching a feed of the proceedings. The fistfights would be especially entertaining.
chroma 11y ago
> - what should you do if your government demands you secretly backdoor a specific user? They've got a warrant or a court order? OK. > - what if your easiest recruiting channels yield a higher proportion of white males than other, costlier recruiting channels do? If you're a good person, you try to correct for that. If you're a money-grubbing sociopath, you try to correct for that. This may sound unusual, but think about it from the sociopath's point of view: If other companies are neglecting some potential candidates, you can hire those people for less pay. Recruiting is cheap compared to salaries, so it's worth the upfront cost. In the long run, even if everyone is a money-grubbing sociopath, all demographics end up being paid the same. > - if your startup is struggling to even survive, should you invest time in infrastructure that protects users' privacy from your employees? Probably not. A dead company can't defend users' privacy very well. Also, assets (such as user data) tend to get sold off when a company shuts down. Best is the enemy of good, and all that. > - how do you find nonprofits and companies that are aligned with your values and need your help? Givewell.[1] These are not hard questions to answer. More importantly: Your hypothetical course, even if taken by every software engineer, would not have prevented the Volkswagen emissions cheating. That was obviously wrong, but the people involved didn't care. 1. http://www.givewell.org/ http://www.givewell.org/

x0x0 11y ago

The point isn't ethics courses. The point is institutional protection for engineers who are ordered to do unethical things and refuse.