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> except electric Why? You have just been shown corporate cheat on tests. Why you would ever assume this has something to do with fuel type? I expect Tesla che

> except electric Why? You have just been shown corporate cheat on tests. Why you would ever assume this has something to do with fuel type? I expect Tesla cheat as much as MB or BMW in their "range" test. And if you believe otherwise you are just someone who doesn't learn from his experience.

pjc50 11y ago
Tesla have, on a couple of occasions, experienced the opposite: a journalist does a range test and falsifies the result downwards by unrealistic driving conditions. On one occasion they used the car's telemetry to disprove the review. Top Gear got complaints for doing the same thing to (I think) a Leaf.
- ams6110 11y ago
  Top Gear did it with a Tesla Roadster. But really, Tesla develop cars with high performance characteristics, and then people complain about "unrealistic driving conditions" when people drive them as they are designed? Tesla could easily program the cars to accelerate moderately and with maximum energy efficiency, but they would't be able to command $80,000 price tags if they did that. People who spend Tesla, Mercedes, or BMW money on a car, by and large, don't give a shit about economy.
Bud 11y ago
You "expect"? Could you perhaps cite any data, any at all? It's not like we don't have a LOT of Tesla owners out there who are obsessively testing this, every day. Do you think they're just all part of the conspiracy?
- yoz-y 11y ago
  It is kind of weird that this is surfacing just now. There are magnitudes more VW owners than Tesla. Why have not the consumer studies revealed this a long time ago?
  - mikeash 11y ago
    You have to put in a fair amount of effort to monitor the fuel efficiency of a gas (or diesel) car. It's not hard, but you have to keep manual records and do some math. If an electric car is much less efficient than claimed, you'll notice as soon as you try to drive to the limit of your car's range, because it won't get there.
    - yoz-y 11y ago
      Hm, I see. However I imagine entreprises with large car parks should have quite a lot of information (taxi services, car rentals, ...)
michaelt 11y ago
I expect Tesla cheat as much as MB or BMW in their "range" test. Many lithium-ion batteries lose capacity with more charge cycles - 20% after 500 charge-discharge cycles would be typical [1] although there are longer-life batteries - so manufacturers who value their reputations design in enough overhead that the battery will still have enough capacity after a few years / when the product reaches the end of its design life. Personally I'd expect a tesla that had just rolled off the production line to exceed the specified range easily. [1] http://industrial.panasonic.com/lecs/www-data/pdf2/ACA4000/ACA4000CE240.pdf http://industrial.panasonic.com/lecs/www-data/pdf2/ACA4000/A...
mikeash 11y ago
Tesla's range numbers for the Model S assume about 300Wh/mile average consumption. My average consumption so far over not quite 8,000 miles is 315Wh/mile. It's hard to cheat in an electric car. Few people care about efficiency directly, but most electric car drivers care deeply about range, and range is just battery capacity multiplied by efficiency. If Tesla were cheating so they could lie about efficiency, Tesla owners would notice pretty much right away that they're not achieving the range they should. The only practical way for Tesla to cheat would be to ship a larger battery than they say they do, and then fudge the numbers from there. Given the current cost of batteries, this would be an incredibly expensive cheat, and it would be tough to hide from the tinkerers who tear down battery packs to see how they're built.
- briantrice 11y ago
  I have definitely found that electric vehicle companies advertise very sound and realistic figures for their mileage. My personal case is a Zero motorcycle, but I've heard confirmation from owners of other kinds; the range it gets is more or less exactly what they state for the test conditions (straight level ground, no winds, etc etc). Mine did in fact improve when I adjusted the aerodynamics, but that's another topic.

pjc50 11y ago

Tesla have, on a couple of occasions, experienced the opposite: a journalist does a range test and falsifies the result downwards by unrealistic driving conditions. On one occasion they used the car's telemetry to disprove the review. Top Gear got complaints for doing the same thing to (I think) a Leaf.

ams6110 11y ago
Top Gear did it with a Tesla Roadster. But really, Tesla develop cars with high performance characteristics, and then people complain about "unrealistic driving conditions" when people drive them as they are designed? Tesla could easily program the cars to accelerate moderately and with maximum energy efficiency, but they would't be able to command $80,000 price tags if they did that. People who spend Tesla, Mercedes, or BMW money on a car, by and large, don't give a shit about economy.

Bud 11y ago

You "expect"? Could you perhaps cite any data, any at all? It's not like we don't have a LOT of Tesla owners out there who are obsessively testing this, every day. Do you think they're just all part of the conspiracy?

yoz-y 11y ago
It is kind of weird that this is surfacing just now. There are magnitudes more VW owners than Tesla. Why have not the consumer studies revealed this a long time ago?
- mikeash 11y ago
  You have to put in a fair amount of effort to monitor the fuel efficiency of a gas (or diesel) car. It's not hard, but you have to keep manual records and do some math. If an electric car is much less efficient than claimed, you'll notice as soon as you try to drive to the limit of your car's range, because it won't get there.
  - yoz-y 11y ago
    Hm, I see. However I imagine entreprises with large car parks should have quite a lot of information (taxi services, car rentals, ...)

michaelt 11y ago

I expect Tesla cheat as much as MB or BMW in their "range" test. Many lithium-ion batteries lose capacity with more charge cycles - 20% after 500 charge-discharge cycles would be typical [1] although there are longer-life batteries - so manufacturers who value their reputations design in enough overhead that the battery will still have enough capacity after a few years / when the product reaches the end of its design life. Personally I'd expect a tesla that had just rolled off the production line to exceed the specified range easily. [1] http://industrial.panasonic.com/lecs/www-data/pdf2/ACA4000/ACA4000CE240.pdf http://industrial.panasonic.com/lecs/www-data/pdf2/ACA4000/A...

mikeash 11y ago

Tesla's range numbers for the Model S assume about 300Wh/mile average consumption. My average consumption so far over not quite 8,000 miles is 315Wh/mile. It's hard to cheat in an electric car. Few people care about efficiency directly, but most electric car drivers care deeply about range, and range is just battery capacity multiplied by efficiency. If Tesla were cheating so they could lie about efficiency, Tesla owners would notice pretty much right away that they're not achieving the range they should. The only practical way for Tesla to cheat would be to ship a larger battery than they say they do, and then fudge the numbers from there. Given the current cost of batteries, this would be an incredibly expensive cheat, and it would be tough to hide from the tinkerers who tear down battery packs to see how they're built.

briantrice 11y ago
I have definitely found that electric vehicle companies advertise very sound and realistic figures for their mileage. My personal case is a Zero motorcycle, but I've heard confirmation from owners of other kinds; the range it gets is more or less exactly what they state for the test conditions (straight level ground, no winds, etc etc). Mine did in fact improve when I adjusted the aerodynamics, but that's another topic.