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After spending lots of time in the Netherlands, where bikes and pedestrians are respected, it was a shock to see the situation in Paris when I was there this we

After spending lots of time in the Netherlands, where bikes and pedestrians are respected, it was a shock to see the situation in Paris when I was there this week. It felt like a car city. Roads sometimes took up a significant amount of space and the sidewalk was only wide enough for one person. Drivers also had such a lack of respect for bikes and pedestrians. It was at times frightening to try to use a crosswalk, as nobody would stop for the people trying to cross. Paris is much better than the states, but they have a lot of room for improvement.

oneeyedpigeon 11y ago
I think there are some cities in Europe - can't remember if Paris is one - in which road traffic can still cross on a green light for pedestrians, maybe only a left turn and if there is no-one crossing. Of course, "no-one" crossing is then taken with a pinch of salt by bullying drivers. This is definitely not the case in London, although traffic still has a tendency to go through red lights late.
- glandium 11y ago
  You're thinking about a right turn on a red light, and it's not the case in France. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_turn_on_red https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_turn_on_red
  - oneeyedpigeon 11y ago
    Oh yes, for places that drive on the right, that obviously makes more sense! It might not be for the same reason, but I've definitely felt like drivers have 'more priority' over crossing pedestrians when in mainland Europe. Even on a pedestrian green light.
    - mootothemax 11y ago
      >Even on a pedestrian green light. Yup - here in Warsaw, that's way more of a give way signal than a stop, thanks to quite often drivers and pedestrians having a green light at the same time!
      - oneeyedpigeon 11y ago
        I have been to Warsaw, and remember some pretty major roads right in the city centre, so it could well be there I'm thinking of - thanks!
    - seszett 11y ago
      I'm not sure what you mean by "a pedestrian green light". I have never seen a pedestrian green light that wasn't accompanied by a red light for cars? Unless maybe you're talking about cars turning left or right at a green light (therefore crossing the path of pedestrians who also have a green light)? I think drivers reasonably respect pedestrians in such situations at least in France, but for regular crossings, yeah it can be quite difficult, even though pedestrians theoretically have priority. It's usually better in core city centers, especially those cities which have extensive areas with reduced speed, pedestrian areas, etc. Nantes and Lille centers are somewhat comparable, but even in the "shared space with pedestrian priority" in Lille's very center (which is almost entirely allowed to cars), cars try to not stop for pedestrians, while in Nantes which has extensive car-free areas, cars will stop and generally drive more gently in most of the city. And just over the border from Lille, in Belgium, things are completely different and cars sometimes stop even if you didn't intend on crossing! I don't think there is any homogeneity in "mainland Europe" on this topic.
      - oneeyedpigeon 11y ago
        Yup, I think we're talking about the same thing. Like I said, I couldn't remember exactly where I'd experienced it, having travelled in a lot of mainland Europe. But, as a Brit, it's very disconcerting - here, if the pedestrian crossing has a green light, the cars have a red light, and must not go, no exceptions.
- mootothemax 11y ago
  >there are some cities in Europe... in which road traffic can still cross on a green light for pedestrians Warsaw has Right Turn on Red, which in itself can be fine. The real fun comes from the frequent Right Turn on GREEN junctions that leads to pedestrian crossings showing green for pedestrians, and on which the law demands drivers to give way to pedestrians. It's crazy dangerous. Too many car drivers plough through regardless, and huge numbers of people just ignore the possibility that there are terrible drivers out there, leading to them being in the right for crossing, and sadly dead for not having looked before crossing.
smonff 11y ago
The Paris cycling infrastructure is freaking non-efficient. And dangerous. Pedestrian and cycling zone are way too mixed, accidents between the two are very easy. Now, pedestrians hate cyclists and cyclists hate pedestrians. You cannot cycle freely because the cycles paths are a kind of bigger pedestrian path. The only place where you could use the bike in an efficient way are bus paths (also including taxis). It's interesting but not really secure as buses are very disrespectful with bicycles. The political action is a fail in the case of Paris, because they did it only to say let's see, we did something for you, but they didn't created what would have been a real political answer to give a better space for pedestrians and bicycles in the streets. The streets are owned by the cars, even the amount of space used by parked cars in Paris is scandalous, and they won't change anything about this. They don't want to take the risk of loosing pro-cars electors and it is a pity. People who use bikes try to conquer this space, but it is far too dangerous, and almost nothing is possible once cars speed would be reduced by law and people will be educated about why it is weird to use a car in Paris when you got a so good public transport system.

oneeyedpigeon 11y ago

I think there are some cities in Europe - can't remember if Paris is one - in which road traffic can still cross on a green light for pedestrians, maybe only a left turn and if there is no-one crossing. Of course, "no-one" crossing is then taken with a pinch of salt by bullying drivers. This is definitely not the case in London, although traffic still has a tendency to go through red lights late.

glandium 11y ago
You're thinking about a right turn on a red light, and it's not the case in France. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_turn_on_red https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_turn_on_red
- oneeyedpigeon 11y ago
  Oh yes, for places that drive on the right, that obviously makes more sense! It might not be for the same reason, but I've definitely felt like drivers have 'more priority' over crossing pedestrians when in mainland Europe. Even on a pedestrian green light.
  - mootothemax 11y ago
    >Even on a pedestrian green light. Yup - here in Warsaw, that's way more of a give way signal than a stop, thanks to quite often drivers and pedestrians having a green light at the same time!
    - oneeyedpigeon 11y ago
      I have been to Warsaw, and remember some pretty major roads right in the city centre, so it could well be there I'm thinking of - thanks!
  - seszett 11y ago
    I'm not sure what you mean by "a pedestrian green light". I have never seen a pedestrian green light that wasn't accompanied by a red light for cars? Unless maybe you're talking about cars turning left or right at a green light (therefore crossing the path of pedestrians who also have a green light)? I think drivers reasonably respect pedestrians in such situations at least in France, but for regular crossings, yeah it can be quite difficult, even though pedestrians theoretically have priority. It's usually better in core city centers, especially those cities which have extensive areas with reduced speed, pedestrian areas, etc. Nantes and Lille centers are somewhat comparable, but even in the "shared space with pedestrian priority" in Lille's very center (which is almost entirely allowed to cars), cars try to not stop for pedestrians, while in Nantes which has extensive car-free areas, cars will stop and generally drive more gently in most of the city. And just over the border from Lille, in Belgium, things are completely different and cars sometimes stop even if you didn't intend on crossing! I don't think there is any homogeneity in "mainland Europe" on this topic.
    - oneeyedpigeon 11y ago
      Yup, I think we're talking about the same thing. Like I said, I couldn't remember exactly where I'd experienced it, having travelled in a lot of mainland Europe. But, as a Brit, it's very disconcerting - here, if the pedestrian crossing has a green light, the cars have a red light, and must not go, no exceptions.
mootothemax 11y ago
>there are some cities in Europe... in which road traffic can still cross on a green light for pedestrians Warsaw has Right Turn on Red, which in itself can be fine. The real fun comes from the frequent Right Turn on GREEN junctions that leads to pedestrian crossings showing green for pedestrians, and on which the law demands drivers to give way to pedestrians. It's crazy dangerous. Too many car drivers plough through regardless, and huge numbers of people just ignore the possibility that there are terrible drivers out there, leading to them being in the right for crossing, and sadly dead for not having looked before crossing.

smonff 11y ago

The Paris cycling infrastructure is freaking non-efficient. And dangerous. Pedestrian and cycling zone are way too mixed, accidents between the two are very easy. Now, pedestrians hate cyclists and cyclists hate pedestrians. You cannot cycle freely because the cycles paths are a kind of bigger pedestrian path. The only place where you could use the bike in an efficient way are bus paths (also including taxis). It's interesting but not really secure as buses are very disrespectful with bicycles. The political action is a fail in the case of Paris, because they did it only to say let's see, we did something for you, but they didn't created what would have been a real political answer to give a better space for pedestrians and bicycles in the streets. The streets are owned by the cars, even the amount of space used by parked cars in Paris is scandalous, and they won't change anything about this. They don't want to take the risk of loosing pro-cars electors and it is a pity. People who use bikes try to conquer this space, but it is far too dangerous, and almost nothing is possible once cars speed would be reduced by law and people will be educated about why it is weird to use a car in Paris when you got a so good public transport system.