3 ms·

Considering the habitual non-reporting of income that has been present in the Greek economy, my first thought is this is just another way to buy and sell stuff

by cjensen 11y ago

Considering the habitual non-reporting of income that has been present in the Greek economy, my first thought is this is just another way to buy and sell stuff while avoiding VAT taxes. Depressing, if true. Are there any signs that the Greeks are learning to pay taxes as a patriotic duty to enable the supportive government they have come to appreciate?

drzaiusapelord 11y ago
Honest question: how do you teach a corrupt society to start paying taxes? The economy there works with the assumption that your tax load is light, so things like rents and price of goods reflect that. It would be difficult for people to go from paying 10% tax to a Eurozone typical 44% tax overnight. The economy would collapse instantly. I supposed you can slowly bring it in, but how? Who has the political capital? And if you do how long would it take to do this safely without hurting the already damaged economy? A decade perhaps? Two? I don't envy the policy makers there right now. The people don't want to be responsible, at least a majority considering how easily Syriza keeps winning and more moderate parties keep losing. Ironically, if they want low taxes they should shoot for a low regulatory, small government, small social services US-style model instead of the welfare state Euro model they're aiming for. Yeah, Germany and France can get way with it because not only are these countries incredibly wealthy, but the people there actually pay their taxes. You can't have Somalian tax loads and French lifestyles.
- elorant 11y ago
  Honest question: how do you teach a corrupt society to start paying taxes? As a Greek citizen I can tell you that the general sentiment here is that the state has to show that they respect taxpayers' money. Which among other things means that the government will genuinely try to fight corruption (this hasn’t happened so far), red tape will be significantly reduced, corrupted public servants will go to jail and their properties will be confiscated etc. There is a huge mistrust between citizens and public sector and this up to a point motivates people to not pay what they should. Of course from a certain perspective this can be perceived as a poor excuse to justify tax avoidance but as always the truth lies in the middle. In Greece there is no sentiment for common good, each one is on his own and that reflects in the way we perceive our obligations to the country. We’ll pay up to the point that we’ll have no problem with the law. If tax laws are not too strict, which was the case up to a few years ago, then people will look the other way. Fortunately, the memorandum is forcing the government to take certain steps in solving many of those issues. Of course it will take time, but the path has been paved.
dev1n 11y ago
A supportive government would have weakened the currency and not pushed austerity on the Greeks. Also, the Eurozone is not a government, it's a monetary union [1]. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurozone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurozone
gaius 11y ago
If this was anywhere else it would be called "disruption".
tormeh 11y ago
>supportive government And which one would that be? This is kinda the problem. The Greek government is so rotten people don't pay tax to it if they they can get away with not paying. Some governments make their citizens rich, while other ones make them poor. Greece's definitely belongs among the latter. I'm sort of a socialist and my hypothesis is that society benefits from good governments being big and bad governments being small. Greece's government is horrible and should therefore be tiny.

by cjensen 11y ago

drzaiusapelord 11y ago

Honest question: how do you teach a corrupt society to start paying taxes? The economy there works with the assumption that your tax load is light, so things like rents and price of goods reflect that. It would be difficult for people to go from paying 10% tax to a Eurozone typical 44% tax overnight. The economy would collapse instantly. I supposed you can slowly bring it in, but how? Who has the political capital? And if you do how long would it take to do this safely without hurting the already damaged economy? A decade perhaps? Two? I don't envy the policy makers there right now. The people don't want to be responsible, at least a majority considering how easily Syriza keeps winning and more moderate parties keep losing. Ironically, if they want low taxes they should shoot for a low regulatory, small government, small social services US-style model instead of the welfare state Euro model they're aiming for. Yeah, Germany and France can get way with it because not only are these countries incredibly wealthy, but the people there actually pay their taxes. You can't have Somalian tax loads and French lifestyles.

elorant 11y ago
Honest question: how do you teach a corrupt society to start paying taxes? As a Greek citizen I can tell you that the general sentiment here is that the state has to show that they respect taxpayers' money. Which among other things means that the government will genuinely try to fight corruption (this hasn’t happened so far), red tape will be significantly reduced, corrupted public servants will go to jail and their properties will be confiscated etc. There is a huge mistrust between citizens and public sector and this up to a point motivates people to not pay what they should. Of course from a certain perspective this can be perceived as a poor excuse to justify tax avoidance but as always the truth lies in the middle. In Greece there is no sentiment for common good, each one is on his own and that reflects in the way we perceive our obligations to the country. We’ll pay up to the point that we’ll have no problem with the law. If tax laws are not too strict, which was the case up to a few years ago, then people will look the other way. Fortunately, the memorandum is forcing the government to take certain steps in solving many of those issues. Of course it will take time, but the path has been paved.

dev1n 11y ago

A supportive government would have weakened the currency and not pushed austerity on the Greeks. Also, the Eurozone is not a government, it's a monetary union [1]. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurozone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurozone

gaius 11y ago

If this was anywhere else it would be called "disruption".

tormeh 11y ago

>supportive government And which one would that be? This is kinda the problem. The Greek government is so rotten people don't pay tax to it if they they can get away with not paying. Some governments make their citizens rich, while other ones make them poor. Greece's definitely belongs among the latter. I'm sort of a socialist and my hypothesis is that society benefits from good governments being big and bad governments being small. Greece's government is horrible and should therefore be tiny.