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Locating data outside the US is in no way a defense against US intelligence agencies. There are theoretically controls on domestic spying, and some possibility

Locating data outside the US is in no way a defense against US intelligence agencies. There are theoretically controls on domestic spying, and some possibility that Congress could make it illegal. They have a mandate to spy on foreign networks. If they haven't cracked your European email provider, then they're not doing what we pay and order them to do.

chappi42 11y ago
> If they haven't cracked your European email provider, then they're not doing what we pay and order them to do. You - sorry to say - would have fucking other issues to solve and fund than spying on your supposed to be friend states email providers. As a suggestion and for a start: fix up your broken justice (prison overpopulation). And then there is this wild west NRA gun idiocy... next crazy shooting is just bound to happen soon enough again. Such a sad pity. I'd suggest you go 'deep inside you' and think again what should be the priorities to pay for. Thanks!
- meepmorp 11y ago
  > I'd suggest you go 'deep inside you' and think again what should be the priorities to pay for. Thanks! As you're perhaps aware, the US is a large country (in area and population), with a political system that depends on a sharply divided electorate. The things you seem to think are obvious issues to tackle are actually rather controversial, and prone to demagoguing by opportunistic politicians. Congratulations on the ideal political process in your home country. Perhaps one day we'll attain the same level of enlightenment; or perhaps you'll gain a bit of maturity and understanding of the landscape here, and develop more realistic ideas about the US. Thanks!
  - chappi42 11y ago
    (7 days after) I'm of course aware of the political system. Thanks. My comment is about the personal statement 'cracked your European email provider, then they're not doing what we pay' which I understand that he is very much in approval of 'we pay'. Maybe I should have restrained from the additional remarks. But I got frustrated about a fellow hacker newser kind of defending intruding friend nation companies and not willing to improve at home. (Yes I would accept that it may not be possible or easy). [But - what a pity - the next shooting didn't wait long to happen. Maybe The Economist has a good and realistic understanding of the landscape, writing: "Those who live in America, or visit it, might do best to regard them [the Normalization of Gun Massacres] the way one regards air pollution in China: an endemic local health hazard which, for deep-rooted cultural, social, economic and political reasons, the country is incapable of addressing.". And then they continue: "This may, however, be a bit unfair. China seems to be making progress on pollution."] Now your turn!
bad_user 11y ago
> If they haven't cracked your European email provider... The difference is that European email providers are not cooperating, because they aren't obliged by your laws, whereas US companies are not only obliged to comply with requests, but they are also coerced to keep it a secret. > ... then they're not doing what we pay and order them to do That's a good thing to know, plus this is reason enough to pressure our governments and companies to not buy into US products or services. And in case you haven't noticed, this has tangible effects already, as fear of industrial espionage is spreading in big companies like fire and I've noticed this first hand in the German companies I'm in contact with. On the negative side, the US is positioned as the steward of the Internet and because your government fucked things up so badly, this is the perfect opportunity for the other countries to balkanize the Internet, to build firewalls, etc. So I hope you're happy about how your taxes are being spent.
- superuser2 11y ago
  >European email providers are not cooperating The NSA doesn't need cooperation. It can pwn sysadmins, plant covert operatives, and backdoor equipment in transit (including foreign-made equipment, so long as US intelligence can influence the shipping carrier, for example by recruiting employees or hacking ancient legacy software). If it can't, then it can pwn the other side of the conversation, or watch the SMTP in cleartext through a submarine-tapped undersea cable. Disband the NSA and some other agency, some other country, will do the same thing. You're bikeshedding. End-to-end encryption with HSMs and trusted execution environments everywhere, always. Verifiable, deterministic builds. A genuinely trustworthy, decentralized PKI. Better software engineering security practices, a professional barrier to entry, and an ethical system (ala the Bar or medical boards) with teeth that will reliably eviscerate people and companies who write and run irresponsibly sloppy code. The cat's not going back in the bag because you avoid the US. Fighting over which service providers you send cleartext through, whose hard drives your unencrypted data sits on, who has the power to MITM you, is a waste of time and a distraction from the real challenge of developing and adopting security systems and practices that make doing what the NSA is doing actually difficult.
  - bad_user 11y ago

chappi42 11y ago

> If they haven't cracked your European email provider, then they're not doing what we pay and order them to do. You - sorry to say - would have fucking other issues to solve and fund than spying on your supposed to be friend states email providers. As a suggestion and for a start: fix up your broken justice (prison overpopulation). And then there is this wild west NRA gun idiocy... next crazy shooting is just bound to happen soon enough again. Such a sad pity. I'd suggest you go 'deep inside you' and think again what should be the priorities to pay for. Thanks!

meepmorp 11y ago
> I'd suggest you go 'deep inside you' and think again what should be the priorities to pay for. Thanks! As you're perhaps aware, the US is a large country (in area and population), with a political system that depends on a sharply divided electorate. The things you seem to think are obvious issues to tackle are actually rather controversial, and prone to demagoguing by opportunistic politicians. Congratulations on the ideal political process in your home country. Perhaps one day we'll attain the same level of enlightenment; or perhaps you'll gain a bit of maturity and understanding of the landscape here, and develop more realistic ideas about the US. Thanks!
- chappi42 11y ago
  (7 days after) I'm of course aware of the political system. Thanks. My comment is about the personal statement 'cracked your European email provider, then they're not doing what we pay' which I understand that he is very much in approval of 'we pay'. Maybe I should have restrained from the additional remarks. But I got frustrated about a fellow hacker newser kind of defending intruding friend nation companies and not willing to improve at home. (Yes I would accept that it may not be possible or easy). [But - what a pity - the next shooting didn't wait long to happen. Maybe The Economist has a good and realistic understanding of the landscape, writing: "Those who live in America, or visit it, might do best to regard them [the Normalization of Gun Massacres] the way one regards air pollution in China: an endemic local health hazard which, for deep-rooted cultural, social, economic and political reasons, the country is incapable of addressing.". And then they continue: "This may, however, be a bit unfair. China seems to be making progress on pollution."] Now your turn!

bad_user 11y ago

> If they haven't cracked your European email provider... The difference is that European email providers are not cooperating, because they aren't obliged by your laws, whereas US companies are not only obliged to comply with requests, but they are also coerced to keep it a secret. > ... then they're not doing what we pay and order them to do That's a good thing to know, plus this is reason enough to pressure our governments and companies to not buy into US products or services. And in case you haven't noticed, this has tangible effects already, as fear of industrial espionage is spreading in big companies like fire and I've noticed this first hand in the German companies I'm in contact with. On the negative side, the US is positioned as the steward of the Internet and because your government fucked things up so badly, this is the perfect opportunity for the other countries to balkanize the Internet, to build firewalls, etc. So I hope you're happy about how your taxes are being spent.

superuser2 11y ago
>European email providers are not cooperating The NSA doesn't need cooperation. It can pwn sysadmins, plant covert operatives, and backdoor equipment in transit (including foreign-made equipment, so long as US intelligence can influence the shipping carrier, for example by recruiting employees or hacking ancient legacy software). If it can't, then it can pwn the other side of the conversation, or watch the SMTP in cleartext through a submarine-tapped undersea cable. Disband the NSA and some other agency, some other country, will do the same thing. You're bikeshedding. End-to-end encryption with HSMs and trusted execution environments everywhere, always. Verifiable, deterministic builds. A genuinely trustworthy, decentralized PKI. Better software engineering security practices, a professional barrier to entry, and an ethical system (ala the Bar or medical boards) with teeth that will reliably eviscerate people and companies who write and run irresponsibly sloppy code. The cat's not going back in the bag because you avoid the US. Fighting over which service providers you send cleartext through, whose hard drives your unencrypted data sits on, who has the power to MITM you, is a waste of time and a distraction from the real challenge of developing and adopting security systems and practices that make doing what the NSA is doing actually difficult.
- bad_user 11y ago