4 ms·

There's some weird activity in this thread which I think bears mentioning. Lots of people saying either "good, this is their job" and "old news"-- shill tradem

There's some weird activity in this thread which I think bears mentioning. Lots of people saying either "good, this is their job" and "old news"-- shill trademark phrases. I'm not making any accusations exactly, but I am concerned at the mass of simple, positive, and vapid comments in this thread.

digler999 11y ago
I was thinking the same thing, definitely some astro-turfing going on here...
- cryoshon 11y ago
  Glad to see I'm not the only one seeing this. I have seen such behavior on other NSA-threads, as well as a few political threads in recent memory. I think, for the most part, HN is now "on the radar".
  - pdkl95 11y ago
    To be absolutely clear re: my other reply - while I think there are a lot of frustrated people, there has absolutely been JTRIG-style astroturfing on HN, and it's not recent. It's dangerous to make specific accusations (many people are just ignorant, confused, or frustrated), but that doesn't account for the reliability, low latency, and consistency of the NSA apologizing in any of these "big" NSA stories.
    - cryoshon 11y ago
      Yeah, the low latency is a critical part. I laid eyes on this thread very soon after it was submitted, and there were already a number of identical dismissal style comments-- before anyone else had even arrived.
sonoffett 11y ago
What the thinker thinks the prover proves. Instead of starting some metaconversation, it might be more productive to address how this information is new news or why the NSA should not be spying on foreign intelligence?
- pdkl95 11y ago
  Instead of starting a distracting discussion about the minutia of spying and whistleblowing, it might be more productive to address the actual problems at the NSA that need immediate attention.
  - sonoffett 11y ago
    Yes, I agree, we must address all the problems brought to our attention immediately.
gozo 11y ago
I agree, imagine people saying the same thing about China or Russia. Not only that, they are completely missing Snowdens point. Which is that US intelligence are out of control and has become self-serving to the point of hurting US interests and principles.
pdkl95 11y ago
> "old news" I never dismiss the possibility of JTRIG-style disinformation or the far more common problem of people that have to argue a certain way because their salary depends on that point of view. That said, I suggest considering Jacob Appelbaum's interpretation[1] of the "not surprised" dismissal: it' s a coping mechanism. It's an expression of frustration about not being able to do anything about the problem. The bigger question is if the phrase is being used to shut down discussion? Or can we acknowledge that frustration and try to find some way past it. It's difficult to care about a cause if you don't see even a theoretical way for the cause to succeed. A particularly effective weapon is convincing your opponents that they cannot win. I suggest that the "cannot win" scenario only happens if we let it happen( by adopting a nihilistic, defeatist attitude. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9Xw3z-8oP4#t=594 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9Xw3z-8oP4#t=594 (I recommend watching the entire talk - especially the question from someone in the NSA (!) at the end)
- sonoffett 11y ago
  What do you think the purpose of the NSA is? I'm trying to understand if you're arguing that the NSA should not exist or if in this case it is acting outside its jurisdiction?
  - pdkl95 11y ago
    I believe that is the wrong question. Apologies, my ulnar nerve says I need to stop typing, so I refer to Appelbaum's response to a similar question, which I agree with completely. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9Xw3z-8oP4#t=4028 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9Xw3z-8oP4#t=4028
  - bediger4000 11y ago
    How can we know what the purpose of the NSA is? After all, the Presidential Order creating it (http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB24/nsa02b.pdf http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB24/nsa02b.pdf) in 1952 was classified (I think) until 2008. We can be pretty certain that the NSA is operating under a legal basis, but we can also be pretty certain that the legal basis is either not what we think it is, or is interpreted in such a fashion as to make the wording of that basis irrelevant. How do we know if the NSA should exist, or if it's acting outside its jurisdiction? All that info is classified, or crapagandized.
mindcrime 11y ago
Let's face it, there are almost certainly NSA / CIA / FBI / $ASSORTED_GOVT_TLA plants here. Or, if not actual human plants, at least an automated system that posts astroturf "pro military-industrial-espionage complex" comments on their behalf. That they use this kind of technology is well established. And considering that HN is a pretty prominent social-media site, frequented by a lot of potential influencers in the technology community, I think the odds are approximately 100% that this site is one of their targets.
- avn2109 11y ago
  Agreed. Which leads to two questions: 1) Why is this post so far down the page? and 2) If anyone is qualified to combat automated (or perhaps even human) astroturfing by technical means, it's YC. Dang/other mods, are there efforts underway to detect and mitigate this? I ask both on principle and because the quality of discussion is noticeably damaged by having to wade through many questionably real comments before finding actual discussion. And of course it's not just the Americans doing this, undoubtedly the Russians/Chinese etc do something similar.
  - mindcrime 11y ago
    Looks like there has at least been some academic research on detecting astro-turfing on social media, although not sure if anybody has looked for the JTRIG stuff specifically. http://www.aaai.org/ocs/index.php/ICWSM/ICWSM11/paper/view/2850/3274 http://www.aaai.org/ocs/index.php/ICWSM/ICWSM11/paper/view/2... https://arxiv.org/abs/1011.3768 https://arxiv.org/abs/1011.3768 http://ra.ethz.ch/CDstore/www2011/companion/p249.pdf http://ra.ethz.ch/CDstore/www2011/companion/p249.pdf
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
caskance 11y ago
You really don't see how some people might legitimately think spying on foreign intelligence agencies is a key part of the NSA's job? Or that disclosing details of that process is actually leaking classified information that should have stayed secret? Dismissing people as shills just because they disagree with you is incredibly arrogant.
- cryoshon 11y ago
  It's not about the disagreement that makes me call them shills, it's about the speed at which they replied to the comment thread (before anyone else did), and that their comments are all negative/dismissive without content, de-railing, or minimizing the issue, rather than addressing it directly while discussing facts as is the HN comment standard.
  - caskance 11y ago
    Occam's razor suggests that the reason is because lower-effort comments take less time to write.

digler999 11y ago

I was thinking the same thing, definitely some astro-turfing going on here...

cryoshon 11y ago
Glad to see I'm not the only one seeing this. I have seen such behavior on other NSA-threads, as well as a few political threads in recent memory. I think, for the most part, HN is now "on the radar".
- pdkl95 11y ago
  To be absolutely clear re: my other reply - while I think there are a lot of frustrated people, there has absolutely been JTRIG-style astroturfing on HN, and it's not recent. It's dangerous to make specific accusations (many people are just ignorant, confused, or frustrated), but that doesn't account for the reliability, low latency, and consistency of the NSA apologizing in any of these "big" NSA stories.
  - cryoshon 11y ago
    Yeah, the low latency is a critical part. I laid eyes on this thread very soon after it was submitted, and there were already a number of identical dismissal style comments-- before anyone else had even arrived.

sonoffett 11y ago

What the thinker thinks the prover proves. Instead of starting some metaconversation, it might be more productive to address how this information is new news or why the NSA should not be spying on foreign intelligence?

pdkl95 11y ago
Instead of starting a distracting discussion about the minutia of spying and whistleblowing, it might be more productive to address the actual problems at the NSA that need immediate attention.
- sonoffett 11y ago
  Yes, I agree, we must address all the problems brought to our attention immediately.

gozo 11y ago

I agree, imagine people saying the same thing about China or Russia. Not only that, they are completely missing Snowdens point. Which is that US intelligence are out of control and has become self-serving to the point of hurting US interests and principles.

pdkl95 11y ago

> "old news" I never dismiss the possibility of JTRIG-style disinformation or the far more common problem of people that have to argue a certain way because their salary depends on that point of view. That said, I suggest considering Jacob Appelbaum's interpretation[1] of the "not surprised" dismissal: it' s a coping mechanism. It's an expression of frustration about not being able to do anything about the problem. The bigger question is if the phrase is being used to shut down discussion? Or can we acknowledge that frustration and try to find some way past it. It's difficult to care about a cause if you don't see even a theoretical way for the cause to succeed. A particularly effective weapon is convincing your opponents that they cannot win. I suggest that the "cannot win" scenario only happens if we let it happen( by adopting a nihilistic, defeatist attitude. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9Xw3z-8oP4#t=594 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9Xw3z-8oP4#t=594 (I recommend watching the entire talk - especially the question from someone in the NSA (!) at the end)

sonoffett 11y ago
What do you think the purpose of the NSA is? I'm trying to understand if you're arguing that the NSA should not exist or if in this case it is acting outside its jurisdiction?
- pdkl95 11y ago
  I believe that is the wrong question. Apologies, my ulnar nerve says I need to stop typing, so I refer to Appelbaum's response to a similar question, which I agree with completely. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9Xw3z-8oP4#t=4028 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9Xw3z-8oP4#t=4028
- bediger4000 11y ago
  How can we know what the purpose of the NSA is? After all, the Presidential Order creating it (http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB24/nsa02b.pdf http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB24/nsa02b.pdf) in 1952 was classified (I think) until 2008. We can be pretty certain that the NSA is operating under a legal basis, but we can also be pretty certain that the legal basis is either not what we think it is, or is interpreted in such a fashion as to make the wording of that basis irrelevant. How do we know if the NSA should exist, or if it's acting outside its jurisdiction? All that info is classified, or crapagandized.

mindcrime 11y ago

Let's face it, there are almost certainly NSA / CIA / FBI / $ASSORTED_GOVT_TLA plants here. Or, if not actual human plants, at least an automated system that posts astroturf "pro military-industrial-espionage complex" comments on their behalf. That they use this kind of technology is well established. And considering that HN is a pretty prominent social-media site, frequented by a lot of potential influencers in the technology community, I think the odds are approximately 100% that this site is one of their targets.

avn2109 11y ago
Agreed. Which leads to two questions: 1) Why is this post so far down the page? and 2) If anyone is qualified to combat automated (or perhaps even human) astroturfing by technical means, it's YC. Dang/other mods, are there efforts underway to detect and mitigate this? I ask both on principle and because the quality of discussion is noticeably damaged by having to wade through many questionably real comments before finding actual discussion. And of course it's not just the Americans doing this, undoubtedly the Russians/Chinese etc do something similar.
- mindcrime 11y ago
  Looks like there has at least been some academic research on detecting astro-turfing on social media, although not sure if anybody has looked for the JTRIG stuff specifically. http://www.aaai.org/ocs/index.php/ICWSM/ICWSM11/paper/view/2850/3274 http://www.aaai.org/ocs/index.php/ICWSM/ICWSM11/paper/view/2... https://arxiv.org/abs/1011.3768 https://arxiv.org/abs/1011.3768 http://ra.ethz.ch/CDstore/www2011/companion/p249.pdf http://ra.ethz.ch/CDstore/www2011/companion/p249.pdf
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

caskance 11y ago

You really don't see how some people might legitimately think spying on foreign intelligence agencies is a key part of the NSA's job? Or that disclosing details of that process is actually leaking classified information that should have stayed secret? Dismissing people as shills just because they disagree with you is incredibly arrogant.

cryoshon 11y ago
It's not about the disagreement that makes me call them shills, it's about the speed at which they replied to the comment thread (before anyone else did), and that their comments are all negative/dismissive without content, de-railing, or minimizing the issue, rather than addressing it directly while discussing facts as is the HN comment standard.
- caskance 11y ago
  Occam's razor suggests that the reason is because lower-effort comments take less time to write.