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My theory is these jobs need to last only long enough for society to get it's head out of it's ass and introduce a universal basic income policy

LesZedCB 11y ago
I agree. It's truly scary how willingly people welcome a system that commoditizes the workforce literally nothing more than a number per hour. I mean, the absolute only thing standing in the way of everybody who signs up to work for Amazon Flex is a self driving car, same with Uber. I understand that supply for these jobs is pretty elastic, but if the workforce doesn't protect themselves, people who become dependent on companies with payment schemes like this will quickly find themselves hurt. A basic income would offer so much economic and social protection for a workforce for tasks like this.
officemonkey 11y ago
My theory is these jobs need to last only long enough for self-driving cars to get commoditized.
- ekianjo 11y ago
  Oh yeah, and who is going to confirm that the delivery is done, or walk in apartment buildings to deliver to the right door ? A robot ? Going to the last mile actually means going to the last centimetre as well. The car is not everything.
  - uptown 11y ago
    If we're capable of solving the challenges of self-driving cars, finding a way to implement large curb-side or driveway-side mailboxes with cameras and RFID trackers, or a "fetchbot" that retrieves a box from the car and rolls it into the house, seems like a trivial hurdle to overcome.
    - ekianjo 11y ago
      I have not seen many robots which can walk stairs without falling at 99.99% confidence yet for door-to-door delivery. Investment of the systems you mention are high-investment, not worth it vs the cost of a human operator per hour. this may change as new buildings are being built with such facilities in mind, but I have not heard of anything like that yet. So human deliveries have a pretty good future for the time being.
      - TeMPOraL 11y ago
        There's a reason blocks of flats have mailboxes on the ground floor. I predict we'll see a rise of better, automated mailboxes, probably loaded from outside. After solving self-driving there is zero reason to employ a human - are companies really going to keep paying decent salary to dead weight that is occasionally useful to go up the stairs? I don't think so.
        ekianjo 11y ago
        > I predict we'll see a rise of better, automated mailboxes, probably loaded from outside. Probably, but then it will take time, again.
  - kaybe 11y ago
    I think most people would be perfectly happy to walk to the street and open the car with a code they just received per text if that saved them some money.
    - ekianjo 11y ago
      > I think most people would be perfectly happy to walk to the street Then it's a worse service and you might as well to the local post office if that's the case.
      - cthalupa 11y ago
        Did you just equate walking to the curb to the same level of inconvenience of having to go to the post office? I'd have to walk nearly as far to get to my car as I would to get to the curb, and then I'd have to drive to the post office, find parking, walk into the post office, wait in line, walk back to my car, drive back, carry the package into my house... "Whelp, having to cook my own food is more inconvenient than having it made for me. At that point I might as well butcher the cow myself!"
      - Splines 11y ago
        It depends on the kind of housing and street layout. If you're in suburbia, walking to your street vs walking to your front door is a difference of 20 feet. Also note that for many neighborhoods in the US, picking up the mail is a PITA - there's a collective mail box somewhere in the neighborhood that you need to walk to, usually a several minute walk. Door-to-door mail delivery only exists for houses that are several decades old. If I could get a business to gather my postal mail & packages and park outside my door I would be very happy.
        ekianjo 11y ago
        The US is actually not very representative of what the whole world looks like out there. In most modern cities you have apartment buildings with several floors and they have separate mailboxes - either common ones or individual ones right at your door. Amazon is a global company and they would need to address the local differences everywhere.
ekianjo 11y ago
> and introduce a universal basic income policy here we go again with this... What's wrong with such jobs ? AS mentioned by Amazon you don't need to work 9 to 5, you can just work for extra if you need. Even if you HAD basic income this kind of part-time job could make sense to make a bit more money that the nothing you would get to survive on your own.
- LesZedCB 11y ago
  Nothing is inherently wrong with the job per se, it's that the general acceptance of a commoditized workforce is dangerous in that it circumvents many other protections offered by regular jobs (not that those are that much better) in disguise because it has a relatively high hourly rate. Your effective hourly rate after paying for health insurance plus other company provided benefits is likely much closer to normal rates. Basic income is a method to prevent wage slavery* as well as many other negative side affects of having to work to try and provide even the basic necessities (shelter and food). This job would be awesome in the world of basic income because people wouldn't have to worry about how they are going to feed themselves, but would be able to work extra to be able to afford the quality of life they prefer. Basic income is about rebalancing the power structures between employer and employee, and giving the power back to the people without it (the employees.) * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery
  - ekianjo 11y ago
    > basic income this is not the place for discussing this here, but the inherent problem with this basic income idea is that there's no way to provide such money in developed countries which are already indebted to the bone. Unless you decide to seize savings and declare the country a communist dictatorship or something.
    - LesZedCB 11y ago
      Well, since you decided to discuss it anyway... :) Basic income is wealth redistribution function. There is a massive income inequality problem in the US (a trivial google search will reveal, if you aren't aware of already), and a basic income would rebalance taxes as well as replace some other social programs in order to pay for it. See this reddit post for more info about income inequality and taxes. https://www.reddit.com/r/BasicIncome/comments/3mqnyg/how_income_inequality_affects_taxes/ https://www.reddit.com/r/BasicIncome/comments/3mqnyg/how_inc...

LesZedCB 11y ago

I agree. It's truly scary how willingly people welcome a system that commoditizes the workforce literally nothing more than a number per hour. I mean, the absolute only thing standing in the way of everybody who signs up to work for Amazon Flex is a self driving car, same with Uber. I understand that supply for these jobs is pretty elastic, but if the workforce doesn't protect themselves, people who become dependent on companies with payment schemes like this will quickly find themselves hurt. A basic income would offer so much economic and social protection for a workforce for tasks like this.

officemonkey 11y ago

My theory is these jobs need to last only long enough for self-driving cars to get commoditized.

ekianjo 11y ago
Oh yeah, and who is going to confirm that the delivery is done, or walk in apartment buildings to deliver to the right door ? A robot ? Going to the last mile actually means going to the last centimetre as well. The car is not everything.
- uptown 11y ago
  If we're capable of solving the challenges of self-driving cars, finding a way to implement large curb-side or driveway-side mailboxes with cameras and RFID trackers, or a "fetchbot" that retrieves a box from the car and rolls it into the house, seems like a trivial hurdle to overcome.
  - ekianjo 11y ago
    I have not seen many robots which can walk stairs without falling at 99.99% confidence yet for door-to-door delivery. Investment of the systems you mention are high-investment, not worth it vs the cost of a human operator per hour. this may change as new buildings are being built with such facilities in mind, but I have not heard of anything like that yet. So human deliveries have a pretty good future for the time being.
    - TeMPOraL 11y ago
      There's a reason blocks of flats have mailboxes on the ground floor. I predict we'll see a rise of better, automated mailboxes, probably loaded from outside. After solving self-driving there is zero reason to employ a human - are companies really going to keep paying decent salary to dead weight that is occasionally useful to go up the stairs? I don't think so.
      - ekianjo 11y ago
        > I predict we'll see a rise of better, automated mailboxes, probably loaded from outside. Probably, but then it will take time, again.
- kaybe 11y ago
  I think most people would be perfectly happy to walk to the street and open the car with a code they just received per text if that saved them some money.
  - ekianjo 11y ago
    > I think most people would be perfectly happy to walk to the street Then it's a worse service and you might as well to the local post office if that's the case.
    - cthalupa 11y ago
      Did you just equate walking to the curb to the same level of inconvenience of having to go to the post office? I'd have to walk nearly as far to get to my car as I would to get to the curb, and then I'd have to drive to the post office, find parking, walk into the post office, wait in line, walk back to my car, drive back, carry the package into my house... "Whelp, having to cook my own food is more inconvenient than having it made for me. At that point I might as well butcher the cow myself!"
    - Splines 11y ago
      It depends on the kind of housing and street layout. If you're in suburbia, walking to your street vs walking to your front door is a difference of 20 feet. Also note that for many neighborhoods in the US, picking up the mail is a PITA - there's a collective mail box somewhere in the neighborhood that you need to walk to, usually a several minute walk. Door-to-door mail delivery only exists for houses that are several decades old. If I could get a business to gather my postal mail & packages and park outside my door I would be very happy.
      - ekianjo 11y ago
        The US is actually not very representative of what the whole world looks like out there. In most modern cities you have apartment buildings with several floors and they have separate mailboxes - either common ones or individual ones right at your door. Amazon is a global company and they would need to address the local differences everywhere.

ekianjo 11y ago

> and introduce a universal basic income policy here we go again with this... What's wrong with such jobs ? AS mentioned by Amazon you don't need to work 9 to 5, you can just work for extra if you need. Even if you HAD basic income this kind of part-time job could make sense to make a bit more money that the nothing you would get to survive on your own.

LesZedCB 11y ago
Nothing is inherently wrong with the job per se, it's that the general acceptance of a commoditized workforce is dangerous in that it circumvents many other protections offered by regular jobs (not that those are that much better) in disguise because it has a relatively high hourly rate. Your effective hourly rate after paying for health insurance plus other company provided benefits is likely much closer to normal rates. Basic income is a method to prevent wage slavery* as well as many other negative side affects of having to work to try and provide even the basic necessities (shelter and food). This job would be awesome in the world of basic income because people wouldn't have to worry about how they are going to feed themselves, but would be able to work extra to be able to afford the quality of life they prefer. Basic income is about rebalancing the power structures between employer and employee, and giving the power back to the people without it (the employees.) * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery
- ekianjo 11y ago
  > basic income this is not the place for discussing this here, but the inherent problem with this basic income idea is that there's no way to provide such money in developed countries which are already indebted to the bone. Unless you decide to seize savings and declare the country a communist dictatorship or something.
  - LesZedCB 11y ago
    Well, since you decided to discuss it anyway... :) Basic income is wealth redistribution function. There is a massive income inequality problem in the US (a trivial google search will reveal, if you aren't aware of already), and a basic income would rebalance taxes as well as replace some other social programs in order to pay for it. See this reddit post for more info about income inequality and taxes. https://www.reddit.com/r/BasicIncome/comments/3mqnyg/how_income_inequality_affects_taxes/ https://www.reddit.com/r/BasicIncome/comments/3mqnyg/how_inc...