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I wish people would learn that words and phrases can acquire meanings of their own, independent of original meanings, origins and associations. "Let a thousand
by Confusion 11y ago
I wish people would learn that words and phrases can acquire meanings of their own, independent of original meanings, origins and associations.
"Let a thousand flowers bloom" has an entirely clear and positive meaning for the vast majority of English speakers.
- jordigh 11y agoAnd Thailand does love Hitler: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_imagery_in_Thailand https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_imagery_in_Thailand
- Confusion 11y agoDo you really believe Mao was the first to ever use something equivalent to the phrase 'Let a hundred flowers bloom' in any language? That thought, and that expression, has many sources older than him.
- mikeash 11y agoAs, no doubt, does "final solution." But that's really not something you'd want to use casually.
- Confusion 11y agoEndlösung is a word I would not casually use. 'Final solution' is not a phrase I have ever thought twice about.
- mikeash 11y agoI would suggest you think twice about it now, then, because if you use "final solution" then you're going to cause a significant portion of your audience to immediately think of the Holocaust. If your intent is to communicate with people rather than simply be technically correct, it's not a good phrase to use unless you actually intend that association.
- jsprogrammer 11y agoIt's also subject to many fallacies, not the least of which is the Inductive Fallacy. I wouldn't use it as part of any argument as it will likely lead you to miss important details and cannot lead you to valid conclusions.
- Confusion 11y agoWell, it's all fine and well that I learn that here now, but many other non-native English speakers will not realize/understand/feel the same thing and will never learn about it. Complaining that they are insensitive isn't going to change that and is, in fact, culturally insensitive in itself. It doesn't really make sense to me that a regular phrase like 'final solution', which has been used as a rather awkward translation of 'endlösung', would have gotten the same connotation as the word itself. I must have said "so we end up with a final solution of ..." countless times and I've never noticed a thing.
- mikeash 11y agoI'm just trying to help, here. If you use that phrase you are quite likely to make people in your audience think of the Holocaust, and if that is not your intent then you probably don't want to use that phrase. If you want to be upset about this, feel free, but it won't change the facts in any way. Language is basically a crappy form of telepathy. You're essentially implanting thoughts in other people's minds. It's crappy because it's really imprecise and error-prone and the minds you're attempting to influence might end up thinking things other than what you're trying to make them think, often because the specific words or phrasing you used brought up associations existing within the target mind. Sometimes it's impossible to avoid because the association is a personal thing. But sometimes it's widespread. In that case, it's really useful to be aware of them. I've certainly made my share of bad phrasing in languages I don't speak natively. No reasonable person is going to be offended if you did it because of ignorance, but once pointed out, it's ridiculous to get defensive. Make a note of it and use this knowledge to improve.
- verinus 11y agocommunication is about your audience as much as about the message. using phrases that have additional meaning without knowing or ignoring it is either ignorant or counter-productive or both.
- Confusion 11y agoA lot of non-native English speakers are ignorant of many additional meanings and if you think less of them because of it, you are the one who is wrong.
- AnimalMuppet 11y agoAnd yet those additional meanings are really there, and aren't going to go away. So the correct response is to educate those non-native English speakers, as you have opportunity, when they stumble into unintended meanings. Don't think less of them, but also help them to not make that particular mistake again.
- btbuildem 11y agoUnless you know about "let a hundred flowers bloom", then it immediately acquires a meaning at best sinister. Ignorance should not be an excuse for callousness.
- gherkin0 11y ago> Ignorance should not be an excuse for callousness. Oh yes, someone is callous unless she learns the sensitivities of every person and group in the world, and then avoids them all whenever posting anything on the web. Or, you know, we could just be more forgiving and understanding of each other.
- forrestthewoods 11y agoActually it is an excuse. Callousness is about intent. Someone isn't being callous if they have no idea.
- Dirlewanger 11y agoShouldn't be surprised to see so many people tripping over each other to be offended on this site. I'd think that the same diverse group would also be cognizant enough to know that not every person visiting this site is going to know the history of every ethnic group in the world. It's an blog post dude, not an insensitive advertising slogan for a new foreign market, get over yourself. Assume he didn't know any better and move on.
- seiji 11y agoPlus, Americans don't learn Chinese history outside of fireworks and dragons and ancestor worship and the silk road. Being upset about using this phrase is like an army of tumblr SJWs being annoyed when someone says gypped. Not everybody knows the complete cultural and racial history of every innocent common phrase used today, even if they come from questionable historical pasts.
- mikeash 11y agoThey said "I wish people would learn...." To say that people don't learn about it is not a sensible counter to that!
- icebraining 11y agoI don't think seiji is trying to counter your post; "Plus" is used to add to something you agree with.
- mikeash 11y agoThey're certainly not countering my post, since there isn't any of mine to reply to. Here's what I see: jordigh says he wishes people would learn about the hundred flowers campaign so they won't make such bad allusions by accident. coldtea counters this saying that it's not actually bad. seiji agrees with coldtea and attempts to offer further support by saying that people don't learn about this stuff anyway. Not so?
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- festivusr 11y agoNow's your opportunity to learn, then. China isn't exactly some tiny country at the end of the world.
- eropple 11y agoThen learn when new knowledge is offered to you, and apologize if you offend (not "I'm sorry that you're offended", all too often the clarion call of people who think "SJW" is a pejorative), and be better as a person afterwards. Ain't that hard.
- nicklaf 11y agoPerhaps, but then "rip 999 of them out" doesn't just add a more sinister tinge, but also confirms the allusion for those who are aware of it. If memory of my history class serves, the quote of letting flowers bloom comes from Mao, who told people he wanted them to open up and share their political differences (ostensibly so that some kind of political dialog could follow), but with the ulterior motive of merely outing his political enemies in order to do terrible things to them. It's a shame to be discussing this instead of the article, though, since I am a huge Peter Seibel fan!
- Mz 11y agoThe fact that the comment to which you replied is the top comment of this discussion and there is so much argument below it about the phrasing of the title while the actual content of the article gets kind of ignored should be a hint that it is a poor title. It clearly demonstrates what a derail it is.