5 ms·

Yeah, saying airbnb is good for housing prices is like the people who think a universal income will help people live easier. hint: if you give everyone an extr

by seiji 11y ago

Yeah, saying airbnb is good for housing prices is like the people who think a universal income will help people live easier. hint: if you give everyone an extra $20k/year, housing will magically go up by $20k/year to match. with airbnb, if you can't afford your $3,000/month rent so you take in a share tenant, maybe now you can afford $5,000 month in rent. now housing prices know everybody can make $5k/month appear through tenant-izing, so all prices go up. now nobody can afford a place unless they take in co-habitating renters or are DINKs.

acgourley 11y ago
It's not magic, it's economics. There are frameworks to think and model this, and they do not support your conclusions.
- seiji 11y ago
  but does your model take into account ė, the derivative of evil in the hearts of humans with respect to time?
  - acgourley 11y ago
    Yes.
- gozo 11y ago
  The article states that "75% of Airbnb hosts in San Francisco say that their income from Airbnb helps them stay in their homes". I don't really see how economics would get in the way of that driving up rents.
bduerst 11y ago
I agree on the income-elastic pricing part, but the demand capacity for AirBnB is tiny compared to the supply. Not that many people are able to subsidize their income and move up.
- seiji 11y ago
  The AirBnB (airbnb, Airbnb, AirbnB?) argument actually has two facets, and any argument with more than one part is too nuanced for arguing in public, sadly. The two parts are: fast-flux roommate discovery versus entire apartments. Fast-flux roommate discovery is generally okay. You may have a roommate anyway, but this just lets you cycle them out daily/weekly/monthly. Plus, if the person is bad/rude/evil, you have to deal with them as well as your neighbors. You've got skin in the game. The fast-flux roommate thing gets shady when the owner says "i'll just sleep on the couch while you visit" or other variations of not really having enough room for a roommate, but making do. A lot of listings have that weird dynamic. The second, and more damaging, part of the AiRbNb story is when people become management companies and rent a dozen or a hundred apartments in a city to be 100% aIrBnB units. That is where real problems start. Rent apartments for $2,000 per month on a yearly lease then turn around and market them as short-term rentals for $200 per night. It's so common there are multiple concierge startups focused around cleaning and key-providing for short term sharing economy rentals taken out of the local for-natives housing supply. It's so common there are routine 'airbnb lies' your bookings are supported to tell to all the neighbors or doorman or building security if they get asked who they are (oh, I'm Sally's cousin!!!) (oh, and the third way, a middle ground between the first two, is when you rent out your apartment just while you're on vacation or whatnot. This is more of a traditional sublet scenario, just facilitated by an evil megacorp who charges too many fees. This falls into the "generally okay" bucket like fast-flux roommate discovery.)
  - bduerst 11y ago
    Right, the management agency supply problem would only exist if AirBnB demand were high enough to impact the housing supply. But as the article said, less than 1 in 1000 units rent enough AirBnB nights to break even on rent in SF, which means that unless the agencies are subsidizing their income elsewhere, it's not a problem.
  - kelnos 11y ago
    The second, and more damaging, part of the AiRbNb story is when people become management companies and rent a dozen or a hundred apartments in a city to be 100% aIrBnB units. Which is already illegal in SF, so if this is happening (the article states that it is not), SF needs to actually enforce its laws. This isn't a problem or criticism of Airbnb.
mikepurvis 11y ago
You sound awfully sure about what you think will happen to housing costs in the face of a universal basic income. Do you have anything to back that up?

by seiji 11y ago

acgourley 11y ago

It's not magic, it's economics. There are frameworks to think and model this, and they do not support your conclusions.

seiji 11y ago
but does your model take into account ė, the derivative of evil in the hearts of humans with respect to time?
- acgourley 11y ago
  Yes.
gozo 11y ago
The article states that "75% of Airbnb hosts in San Francisco say that their income from Airbnb helps them stay in their homes". I don't really see how economics would get in the way of that driving up rents.

bduerst 11y ago

I agree on the income-elastic pricing part, but the demand capacity for AirBnB is tiny compared to the supply. Not that many people are able to subsidize their income and move up.

seiji 11y ago
The AirBnB (airbnb, Airbnb, AirbnB?) argument actually has two facets, and any argument with more than one part is too nuanced for arguing in public, sadly. The two parts are: fast-flux roommate discovery versus entire apartments. Fast-flux roommate discovery is generally okay. You may have a roommate anyway, but this just lets you cycle them out daily/weekly/monthly. Plus, if the person is bad/rude/evil, you have to deal with them as well as your neighbors. You've got skin in the game. The fast-flux roommate thing gets shady when the owner says "i'll just sleep on the couch while you visit" or other variations of not really having enough room for a roommate, but making do. A lot of listings have that weird dynamic. The second, and more damaging, part of the AiRbNb story is when people become management companies and rent a dozen or a hundred apartments in a city to be 100% aIrBnB units. That is where real problems start. Rent apartments for $2,000 per month on a yearly lease then turn around and market them as short-term rentals for $200 per night. It's so common there are multiple concierge startups focused around cleaning and key-providing for short term sharing economy rentals taken out of the local for-natives housing supply. It's so common there are routine 'airbnb lies' your bookings are supported to tell to all the neighbors or doorman or building security if they get asked who they are (oh, I'm Sally's cousin!!!) (oh, and the third way, a middle ground between the first two, is when you rent out your apartment just while you're on vacation or whatnot. This is more of a traditional sublet scenario, just facilitated by an evil megacorp who charges too many fees. This falls into the "generally okay" bucket like fast-flux roommate discovery.)
- bduerst 11y ago
  Right, the management agency supply problem would only exist if AirBnB demand were high enough to impact the housing supply. But as the article said, less than 1 in 1000 units rent enough AirBnB nights to break even on rent in SF, which means that unless the agencies are subsidizing their income elsewhere, it's not a problem.
- kelnos 11y ago
  The second, and more damaging, part of the AiRbNb story is when people become management companies and rent a dozen or a hundred apartments in a city to be 100% aIrBnB units. Which is already illegal in SF, so if this is happening (the article states that it is not), SF needs to actually enforce its laws. This isn't a problem or criticism of Airbnb.

mikepurvis 11y ago

You sound awfully sure about what you think will happen to housing costs in the face of a universal basic income. Do you have anything to back that up?