3 ms·

That sounds like it definitely works in the university setting you're describing, and sounds like the same type of thing that would have happened in the middle

That sounds like it definitely works in the university setting you're describing, and sounds like the same type of thing that would have happened in the middle school setting I used to work in. The unfortunate thing in both settings is that the slackers always get bad marks. This is especially bad for a 7th grader when poor school performance can have little to do with the student's actual skills and a lot to do with their home life and/or parental involvement.

morgante 11y ago
I don't think you could possibly design a mixed-skill education model where slackers don't get bad marks. If slackers get good marks, marks are meaningless.
- stevesearer 11y ago
  Completely agree. I guess I was more commenting about the fact that is doesn't matter whether the groups are self-formed or teacher-formed, or university-level or middle school-level because the outcome will always be the same: slackers get bad marks. One of my goals as a teacher was to identify "slacker" students who didn't like to read and then try to help them find enjoyment from reading. Usually the reason for not liking reading was that they hadn't found a subject or genre that they connected with or were allowed to explore in depth. That is kind of off-topic, but I always felt like the marks were only one aspect of education and even if the student ended up with bad marks, they could still grow and be a different person by the time they were done with the school year.
  - ckozlowski 11y ago
    Goes the other way as well. My cousin had horrible marks on her SATs. 800s. Yet she was straight A's in classes. As a music major she was playing in two bands in addition to her AP course work. The college didn't seem to mind. UNC gave her a full ride. Well deserved.
    - akhilcacharya 11y ago
      When you say 800s, it makes me think that she got multiple 800s (like on CR and M). Honestly, getting a 1600 CR+M seems like one of the few guaranteed ways to get a Morehead Semifinalist Interview, from the few people I know at least.
  - morgante 11y ago
    > I guess I was more commenting about the fact that is doesn't matter whether the groups are self-formed or teacher-formed, or university-level or middle school-level because the outcome will always be the same: slackers get bad marks. Actually, that's not true in my experience. When a teacher assigns groups, then they often force slackers into groups with hard-working over achievers who pick up all the slack. So the slacker does get a good mark. Not that I think that's a good thing for everyone. It pisses off the student who did all the hard work, makes marks meaningless, and allows the slacker to coast further without learning anything. Yet it's disturbingly common.
    - pyre 11y ago
      Well, the teacher helped the "slacker" student improve their grades... must be a great teacher!
- wfo 11y ago
  You hit the nail on the head; these early marks are meaningless. These are barely mentally formed children. We do everything we can to avoid having them be responsible for their choices because honestly they aren't ready to make serious decisions. Except we begin the gauntlet of constant rating and judgement in school with aftereffects that carry over throughout their academic lives no matter their circumstances. Their success or failure is essentially a proxy for their parents success or failure, or a accident of circumstance more often than it's any genuine ability. If any marking is to count or mean anything it needs to begin when they are adults capable of making real choices.
silvestrov 11y ago
The slackers need a wake-up call. Most of the slackers slack precisely because they can get away with it. You don't learn to stop slacking by always being able to get away with it, still getting good marks even though you didn't do any work. I was a slacker in one subject in high school, didn't do homework at all. The first mark I got was an F-. It was the kick in the butt I needed for pulling myself together and do the work needed to raise the grade step by step to a B+.

morgante 11y ago

I don't think you could possibly design a mixed-skill education model where slackers don't get bad marks. If slackers get good marks, marks are meaningless.

stevesearer 11y ago
Completely agree. I guess I was more commenting about the fact that is doesn't matter whether the groups are self-formed or teacher-formed, or university-level or middle school-level because the outcome will always be the same: slackers get bad marks. One of my goals as a teacher was to identify "slacker" students who didn't like to read and then try to help them find enjoyment from reading. Usually the reason for not liking reading was that they hadn't found a subject or genre that they connected with or were allowed to explore in depth. That is kind of off-topic, but I always felt like the marks were only one aspect of education and even if the student ended up with bad marks, they could still grow and be a different person by the time they were done with the school year.
- ckozlowski 11y ago
  Goes the other way as well. My cousin had horrible marks on her SATs. 800s. Yet she was straight A's in classes. As a music major she was playing in two bands in addition to her AP course work. The college didn't seem to mind. UNC gave her a full ride. Well deserved.
  - akhilcacharya 11y ago
    When you say 800s, it makes me think that she got multiple 800s (like on CR and M). Honestly, getting a 1600 CR+M seems like one of the few guaranteed ways to get a Morehead Semifinalist Interview, from the few people I know at least.
- morgante 11y ago
  > I guess I was more commenting about the fact that is doesn't matter whether the groups are self-formed or teacher-formed, or university-level or middle school-level because the outcome will always be the same: slackers get bad marks. Actually, that's not true in my experience. When a teacher assigns groups, then they often force slackers into groups with hard-working over achievers who pick up all the slack. So the slacker does get a good mark. Not that I think that's a good thing for everyone. It pisses off the student who did all the hard work, makes marks meaningless, and allows the slacker to coast further without learning anything. Yet it's disturbingly common.
  - pyre 11y ago
    Well, the teacher helped the "slacker" student improve their grades... must be a great teacher!
wfo 11y ago
You hit the nail on the head; these early marks are meaningless. These are barely mentally formed children. We do everything we can to avoid having them be responsible for their choices because honestly they aren't ready to make serious decisions. Except we begin the gauntlet of constant rating and judgement in school with aftereffects that carry over throughout their academic lives no matter their circumstances. Their success or failure is essentially a proxy for their parents success or failure, or a accident of circumstance more often than it's any genuine ability. If any marking is to count or mean anything it needs to begin when they are adults capable of making real choices.

silvestrov 11y ago

The slackers need a wake-up call. Most of the slackers slack precisely because they can get away with it. You don't learn to stop slacking by always being able to get away with it, still getting good marks even though you didn't do any work. I was a slacker in one subject in high school, didn't do homework at all. The first mark I got was an F-. It was the kick in the butt I needed for pulling myself together and do the work needed to raise the grade step by step to a B+.