4 ms·

The hard SF novel Blindsight, by Peter Watts, is an excellent and extremely interesting exploration of this idea and its ramifications.

by lukev 11y ago

Eric_WVGG 11y ago
Yup, was going to pimp this as well. Absolute banger, and terrifying on a level of the 1978 Alien.
- escapecharacter 11y ago
  Well then I absolutely must inform you that Peter Watts from a fan fiction version of The Thing from the viewpoint of the alien: http://clarkesworldmagazine.com/watts_01_10/ http://clarkesworldmagazine.com/watts_01_10/
  - Eric_WVGG 11y ago
    !! thanks
paol 11y ago
Not just this idea, almost every question of consciousness/intelligence/self awareness is approached in some form or another, from different angles. I could go on about it, but I'll just say it's the best SF I've read in a long while.
- mirimir 11y ago
  I love it too. Conscious self-awareness is arguably not very useful. It pretends to be in control, but mostly it's just observing what the mind has already done, and makes up stuff to rationalize it. At best, that's merely superfluous. But at worst, consciousness gets in the way, and generates counterproductive emotional states. But fortunately, ones mind can trick its consciousness into being useful :)
  - themgt 11y ago
    Worth trying to differentiate between "consciousness", which I think it's obvious cats and many other animals have, and the human "voice inside your head" / narrative self, which is much more a tower of babel built on symbolic cards, which is a very recent human invention, and arguably that moreso than "consciousness" is what can cause us so much harm.
    - KingMob 11y ago
      Exactly. Perceptual awareness does not require self-consciousness.
    - mirimir 11y ago
      That's a good point. I was thinking of narrative self. And I am conscious of my narrative self, so they're distinct. So arguably they're all levels in a self-referential stack.
  - KingMob 11y ago
    This is the epiphenomenal position, that consciousness is just along for the ride. However, it strongly requires that consciousness be not detrimental (at least not overall), because otherwise, evolution probably would have weeded it out. The novel Blindsight kind of suggests that humans are a local evolutionary maxima, that we achieved mastery of our planet due to our other talents, despite being burdened with consciousness. But again, this runs afoul of evolutionary fitness. Even if animals lacking consciousness couldn't surmount our other abilities, if a mutant human arose without consciousness, presumably it would have an advantage over other humans, and its genes would spread throughout the populace. The book is really interesting, but having studied this for 7 years of my life, there's no way the author is correct. It's much more likely that other animals experience conscious awareness too. We don't know for sure, and we don't know where to draw the line (fish, insects, aplysia, bacteria?), but it seems reasonable to believe higher mammals have awareness (which is distinct from language, tool use, self-reflection, Theory of Mind, etc).
    - redacted 11y ago
traverseda 11y ago
And it's free! http://www.rifters.com/real/Blindsight.htm http://www.rifters.com/real/Blindsight.htm
taneq 11y ago
I just finished reading Blindsight and Echopraxia (as the omnibus release 'Firefall') a couple of days ago, they're both great reads. I don't agree with his conclusions about sentience but I think they're well worth exploring nonetheless. Edit: Oh wow, not only is Blindsight available online, but all of his short stories are up as well! http://www.rifters.com/real/shorts.htm http://www.rifters.com/real/shorts.htm

The hard SF novel Blindsight, by Peter Watts, is an excellent and extremely interesting exploration of this idea and its ramifications.

by lukev 11y ago

The hard SF novel Blindsight, by Peter Watts, is an excellent and extremely interesting exploration of this idea and its ramifications.

Eric_WVGG 11y ago

Yup, was going to pimp this as well. Absolute banger, and terrifying on a level of the 1978 Alien.

escapecharacter 11y ago
Well then I absolutely must inform you that Peter Watts from a fan fiction version of The Thing from the viewpoint of the alien: http://clarkesworldmagazine.com/watts_01_10/ http://clarkesworldmagazine.com/watts_01_10/
- Eric_WVGG 11y ago
  !! thanks

paol 11y ago

Not just this idea, almost every question of consciousness/intelligence/self awareness is approached in some form or another, from different angles. I could go on about it, but I'll just say it's the best SF I've read in a long while.

mirimir 11y ago
I love it too. Conscious self-awareness is arguably not very useful. It pretends to be in control, but mostly it's just observing what the mind has already done, and makes up stuff to rationalize it. At best, that's merely superfluous. But at worst, consciousness gets in the way, and generates counterproductive emotional states. But fortunately, ones mind can trick its consciousness into being useful :)
- themgt 11y ago
  Worth trying to differentiate between "consciousness", which I think it's obvious cats and many other animals have, and the human "voice inside your head" / narrative self, which is much more a tower of babel built on symbolic cards, which is a very recent human invention, and arguably that moreso than "consciousness" is what can cause us so much harm.
  - KingMob 11y ago
    Exactly. Perceptual awareness does not require self-consciousness.
  - mirimir 11y ago
    That's a good point. I was thinking of narrative self. And I am conscious of my narrative self, so they're distinct. So arguably they're all levels in a self-referential stack.
- KingMob 11y ago
  This is the epiphenomenal position, that consciousness is just along for the ride. However, it strongly requires that consciousness be not detrimental (at least not overall), because otherwise, evolution probably would have weeded it out. The novel Blindsight kind of suggests that humans are a local evolutionary maxima, that we achieved mastery of our planet due to our other talents, despite being burdened with consciousness. But again, this runs afoul of evolutionary fitness. Even if animals lacking consciousness couldn't surmount our other abilities, if a mutant human arose without consciousness, presumably it would have an advantage over other humans, and its genes would spread throughout the populace. The book is really interesting, but having studied this for 7 years of my life, there's no way the author is correct. It's much more likely that other animals experience conscious awareness too. We don't know for sure, and we don't know where to draw the line (fish, insects, aplysia, bacteria?), but it seems reasonable to believe higher mammals have awareness (which is distinct from language, tool use, self-reflection, Theory of Mind, etc).
  - redacted 11y ago

traverseda 11y ago

And it's free! http://www.rifters.com/real/Blindsight.htm http://www.rifters.com/real/Blindsight.htm

taneq 11y ago

I just finished reading Blindsight and Echopraxia (as the omnibus release 'Firefall') a couple of days ago, they're both great reads. I don't agree with his conclusions about sentience but I think they're well worth exploring nonetheless. Edit: Oh wow, not only is Blindsight available online, but all of his short stories are up as well! http://www.rifters.com/real/shorts.htm http://www.rifters.com/real/shorts.htm