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I wonder what the chances are for something like this taking off. On the one hand it is popular for politicians around the globe to criticize the U.S. surveilla

I wonder what the chances are for something like this taking off. On the one hand it is popular for politicians around the globe to criticize the U.S. surveillance programs - on the other hand, most governments probably want the same kind of power over their own citizens that mass surveillance can give them. Governments which don't currently have the technical means to run these kind of programs might be more likely to sign up. I really hope some country will step up soon and get the ball rolling.

hugh4 11y ago
The chance is zero. Treaties work in a situation where states are happy to stop doing something if they can be reassured that other states will do so too. But this isn't even really about state vs state, it's primarily about state vs non-state actors. The interests of all states are aligned here in not signing any such treaty.
- jsnathan 11y ago
  Not all states have these kinds of programs already running. And even if all states interests are aligned, that still leaves the people demanding change. Does democracy have no chance in this instance? Remember that this is not the first time that mass surveillance programs have been defeated. East Germany might be a good example. Of course it's different - but also it's the same. I hope we don't need to go further down the Orwellian rabbit hole before we realize the problems and stand up to fight them.
  - vezzy-fnord 11y ago
    Saying the GDR's surveillance program was defeated has the causality wrong. The state was dissolved entirely amidst the Fall of Communism. With unification, the main SIGINT, HUMINT and foreign surveillance agency is now the BND. Unless your proposal is to topple nation states.
    - jsnathan 11y ago
      Just because a government is overthrown doesn't guarantee that the new government uses less repressive policies than the old. But it worked here because the new government had a different vision for life than the old. I am not hoping that violent coups are necessary - or even possible in many places. But the fact is that not all governments around the world are as cordial as the Western ones, and mass surveillance has a terrifying potential in many places around the globe. I do hope that democratic states can avoid these outcomes when enough political will has been gathered to affirm a way of life that values privacy, and a transparent government.

hugh4 11y ago

The chance is zero. Treaties work in a situation where states are happy to stop doing something if they can be reassured that other states will do so too. But this isn't even really about state vs state, it's primarily about state vs non-state actors. The interests of all states are aligned here in not signing any such treaty.

jsnathan 11y ago
Not all states have these kinds of programs already running. And even if all states interests are aligned, that still leaves the people demanding change. Does democracy have no chance in this instance? Remember that this is not the first time that mass surveillance programs have been defeated. East Germany might be a good example. Of course it's different - but also it's the same. I hope we don't need to go further down the Orwellian rabbit hole before we realize the problems and stand up to fight them.
- vezzy-fnord 11y ago
  Saying the GDR's surveillance program was defeated has the causality wrong. The state was dissolved entirely amidst the Fall of Communism. With unification, the main SIGINT, HUMINT and foreign surveillance agency is now the BND. Unless your proposal is to topple nation states.
  - jsnathan 11y ago
    Just because a government is overthrown doesn't guarantee that the new government uses less repressive policies than the old. But it worked here because the new government had a different vision for life than the old. I am not hoping that violent coups are necessary - or even possible in many places. But the fact is that not all governments around the world are as cordial as the Western ones, and mass surveillance has a terrifying potential in many places around the globe. I do hope that democratic states can avoid these outcomes when enough political will has been gathered to affirm a way of life that values privacy, and a transparent government.