7 ms·

A Non-Conformist's Guide to Success in a Conformist World (2014)

80 points by igonvalue 11y ago

hugh4 11y ago
The most conformist tendency I've noticed on the planet is this: that every single person on it considers himself a nonconformist. Most of us just congratulate ourselves on our nonconformist privately though, not publically, like this guy.
- Sven7 11y ago
  :) True. Apple and Obama you could say are the gold standard.
  - verbin217 11y ago
    Apple actually tends to inspire conformity and not to practice it.
    - mojuba 11y ago
      Apple inspires conformity to their own non-conformism :)
collyw 11y ago
How exactly is this guy a non-conformist more than anyone else? Not liking sport at school?
- bnegreve 11y ago
  He is not trying to prove it because if you think about it, it doesn't matter who/what he is. At least, not from his non-conformist perspective.
- k__ 11y ago
  Who really is? I don't watch TV so in Germany I'm a minority. But of I only consider people my age (30) I'm probably normal. I share a flat with my friend despite the fact that I Marke enough money to rent this whole thing alone. Do these facts already make me non-conforming? Most people here would probably say "no" To convince most of them, I would have to add, that I work remotely and don't do monogamy anymore. Also what is non-conformism an way? I'm not vegan, so in sense of eating I'm pretty conforming....
- yummyfajitas 11y ago
  If you read his blog regularly, you'll realize he is an advocate of a variety controversial ideas: open borders, natalism, the educational signalling theory, the idea that how you raise your children (within normal non-abusive bounds) is irrelevant.
  - vezzy-fnord 11y ago
    natalism I was under the impression the opposite was the controversial idea.
    - yummyfajitas 11y ago
      I'm not aware of very many "serious people" advocating having as many kids as possible on the grounds that children are fun.
toothbrush 11y ago
This guy sounds less like a non-conformist and more like a really self-centred sociopath. I don't necessarily say that in a derogatory way though, and most of his advice, if pragmatic, sounds unsurprising. I think it boils down to "don't be a tool to other people's faces". I mean wow, this quote: "Treat your family fairly, but remember that relatives - especially older relatives - are the lords of empty threats. Despite all their criticism, they probably love you too much to do more than nag you." One would think he's doing a hostile takeover of a company!
- verbin217 11y ago
  I've come to exactly that conclusion about my family. I love them but frankly their concern for me translates into very little benefit for anyone. Also their criticisms were largely born of themselves and served primarily to limit me.
  - busterarm 11y ago
    Same, but I'll take it one step further. I have never had an actual _conversation_ with my own mother (single parent home) who is now in her 70s. Every attempt at a discussion has always ended up without her actually trying to listen and heaping on (berating) criticism that is either coming from her own shortcomings/fears (and she's a very fearful person) or she'll interrupt me and heap on criticism based on what she thinks I'm going to say. At least that's how it's been since I was too big for her to continue to beat me. There hasn't been a shred of concern for my own interests and goals and in my 30s I don't expect that to change from her. She's been trying to break up my older brother's marriage for near 20 years (after successfully driving his previous partner away and a few of mine). She wasn't invited to my brother's wedding and if I ever meet someone that I care about again, she will not get to meet them. Ever. If I were more cynical, I would say that every time our goals aren't lock-step with her goals for us, she makes a concerted effort for us to fail, but I imagine that she really thinks she has the best of intentions. She is just crazy. So sure, love your family, but that doesn't mean your family is good for you. If your family isn't good for you, limit their ability to do damage in your life. If you can't do that, cut them off.
austinjp 11y ago
tl;dr: choose your battles; work hard; kiss ass. Doesn't feel very non-conformist to me. However i do like his appreciation of the role of luck, although even that was cursory. All a bit self-congratulatory, and not much to surprise.
- cpkpad 11y ago
  As a serious non-conformist, those were actually the hardest lessons to learn. I changed the clothing I wear (which doesn't matter much to me), how I communicate, and stopped alienating people over things which don't matter. That me non-conform on the things which do matter a lot more and a lot more successfully.
- coldtea 11y ago
  >tl;dr: choose your battles; work hard; kiss ass. Doesn't feel very non-conformist to me. It's the Horatio Alger school of non-conformism...
  - fnordfnordfnord 11y ago
    That gave me a chuckle. I see a little Machiavelli and some Sun Tzu in there too though.
calibraxis 11y ago
Ironic that every author pic on that site seems to show at least a dress shirt, and commonly a suit. (I'm sure it looks nice, but such clothing undeniably is used to signal conformity, and these authors conform to a dress code.) Then, "Most workplaces are not democracies. This is very good news..." advising: "make yourself invaluable to key superiors, who will in turn protect and promote you" and "Spend the first year of any job convincing your employer he was right to hire you..." (He's right, workplaces are unusually totalitarian: top-down dominance structures. Hence advice to pleasure your boss.) These right-wing "libertarians" are conformists. To recruit, they clumsily imitate social justice movements (like anarchism) where people actually do challenge the status quo. Their arguments against democracy rely on misconceptions like "US is a democracy"; or "democracy=voting", instead of say consensus.
- keithpeter 11y ago
  Yes, I saw the stock photo with the suit/tie. But then the text does mention shorts/pumps. So I imagine that the stock photo is an example of conforming in small details. Quote from item 12: "Modern societies are huge, anonymous, and forgetful.". Perhaps not so much in the future? Item 15 was lovely. I'm off out now on a nice autumn day in the UK to find some awesomeness. There is Rugby, and the trees are turning colour.
- coldtea 11y ago
  >Ironic that every author pic on that site seems to show at least a dress shirt, and commonly a suit. (I'm sure it looks nice, but such clothing undeniably is used to signal conformity, and these authors conform to a dress code.) In this day and age you're actually a non-conformist in most situations if you wear a suit. Especially as everyone else, even the President often, wears some casual clothes to look non-conformist.
- switch007 11y ago
  > Hence advice to pleasure your boss. I'm dedicated, but not /that/ dedicated.
x5n1 11y ago
Americans believe in myths about their non-conformist culture. Fact is that all cultures are highly conformist. And Americans are highly conformist in their highly consumerist culture that expresses non-conformity as a key aspect of the culture as a way to stimulate thought and creative destruction. However, at the same time there are huge barriers to taking full advantage of the non-conformist culture which is mainly money. To get money you have to conform, and to get more money you have to conform even more... while at the same time being individualistic and non-conformist in your thinking.
- cpkpad 11y ago
  Conformist lets you hit 6 figures easily. Going beyond, non-conformists have the advantage.
benihana 11y ago
I couldn't tell if this was real or satire until the last sentence. I mean, it reads like not very subtle satire - like a 14 year old snowflake on tumblr wrote it. But people in the comments there and here are taking it seriously. And it's really not that much of a stretch to believe someone in Academia would actually think this way and publish it.
- johan_larson 11y ago
  The word that comes to mind is "self-congratulatory".
ZenoArrow 11y ago
The importance of non-conformity is basically zero. If you enjoy something, does it matter how many or how few feel the same? Sure, it's nice when you have shared interests with others, but it's doesn't matter if they're not. Your interests do not have to define who you are, do not have to define how you interact with others. Preconceived notions of worth based on popularity will only cloud your view of what's enjoyable to you.
- snitko 11y ago
  Non conformity is not something you choose as a tool (if you're a thinking adult of course). It's a consequence of your beliefs and reasoning, which you will not give up no matter the benefits.
  - ZenoArrow 11y ago
    No, it's a label, and a useless one at that. Everyone is likely to have a mix of niche and mainstream interests, when they stop concerning themselves with fitting into a narrow vision of who they are. Can you still be a non-conformist if you have similar interests to the mainstream?
    - dragonwriter 11y ago
      A person who isn't concerned with confirming isn't s noon-conformist, someone who is actively concerned with not conforming is. You can be a non-conformist and have mainstream interests, but just as a conformist will neglect non-mainstream interests for the sake of conformity, a non-conformist will do the reverse. Now people will get labeled by others as conformist or non-conformist based on outward signs, and this will often be overly inclusive since someone who is neutral to conformity cannot, in some cases, easily be distinguished outwardly from a conformist, if their interests are mainstream, or a non-conformist, if they are not.
      - ZenoArrow 11y ago
        When people attach the label of non-conformist to themselves, what must they do to maintain that label? To me, most labels we attach to ourselves requires a certain level of maintenance. If I call myself a geek I have attached that label to certain interests I have, if those interests change does the label lose its meaning? What I'm really saying is that a self-identified non-conformist has influenced their tastes in the future, whether they admit it or not. If that label is applied by others then it need not have the same effect.
sarciszewski 11y ago
What exactly makes you a non-conformist? - Do you wear your pants on your chest and shirts on your legs? - Do you actively proclaim that pedophilia is perfectly acceptable? In my opinion, non-conformist is just another label, which sounds awfully conformist when you think about it. Some people conform for stupid reasons (e.g. a need to feel accepted), but sometimes you find a group of like-minded individuals with similar interests. What then? Do you conform or not? What if you earnestly have the same interests? Simple solution: How about just do/like whatever you like, and don't try to make everyone think you're a special snowflake? Because the majority of people in the world frankly don't give a shit. You like 70's music? You like trashy horror flicks? You like furry art? Good for you. Continue to like it and stop trying to cast it as a radical act.
- verbin217 11y ago
  "How about just do/like whatever you like, and don't try to make everyone think you're a special snowflake" So... be a non-conformist? A non-conformist maintains a notion of themselves as such not because they're trying to be a special snow-flake. They need a concept with which to analyze their problems. It's actually really hard to just do what you like and get away with it. Like you said, "the majority of people in the world frankly don't give a shit." No one out there is trying to figure out how to reward you for something they don't understand. Even if it's insanely valuable. There will always be rewards for simply adapting yourself to an existing concept. Anyone not doing that pays a significant penalty for which the conformist world is entirely ignorant. They won't care and they won't help you deal with it. Hence, non-conformists converge-on but don't necessarily conform-to this stereotype. The one in the corner complaining about the conformists.
littletimmy 11y ago
I quite dislike when people think of themselves this much. I'm a non-conformist / I'm a conformist / I'm an introvert/ I'm an extrovert / I'm a xyz / I'm an xzy... No one fucking cares. There's self-reflection, and then there's self-absorbed blowing your own trumpet. The latter is decidedly repulsive. Coming from an Asian culture, I notice that Americans are particularly inclined to be this self-absorbed, wonder why.
zero-rated 11y ago
Anyone who wants a serious non-conformist guide should absolutely, definitely read Disciplined Minds[1] by Jeff Schmidt. What an important book. [1] http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0742516857/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?qid=1443389466&sr=8-1&pi=SL75_QL70&keywords=disciplined+minds http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0742516857/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?qid=...

80 points by igonvalue 11y ago

hugh4 11y ago

The most conformist tendency I've noticed on the planet is this: that every single person on it considers himself a nonconformist. Most of us just congratulate ourselves on our nonconformist privately though, not publically, like this guy.

Sven7 11y ago
:) True. Apple and Obama you could say are the gold standard.
- verbin217 11y ago
  Apple actually tends to inspire conformity and not to practice it.
  - mojuba 11y ago
    Apple inspires conformity to their own non-conformism :)

collyw 11y ago

How exactly is this guy a non-conformist more than anyone else? Not liking sport at school?

bnegreve 11y ago
He is not trying to prove it because if you think about it, it doesn't matter who/what he is. At least, not from his non-conformist perspective.
k__ 11y ago
Who really is? I don't watch TV so in Germany I'm a minority. But of I only consider people my age (30) I'm probably normal. I share a flat with my friend despite the fact that I Marke enough money to rent this whole thing alone. Do these facts already make me non-conforming? Most people here would probably say "no" To convince most of them, I would have to add, that I work remotely and don't do monogamy anymore. Also what is non-conformism an way? I'm not vegan, so in sense of eating I'm pretty conforming....
yummyfajitas 11y ago
If you read his blog regularly, you'll realize he is an advocate of a variety controversial ideas: open borders, natalism, the educational signalling theory, the idea that how you raise your children (within normal non-abusive bounds) is irrelevant.
- vezzy-fnord 11y ago
  natalism I was under the impression the opposite was the controversial idea.
  - yummyfajitas 11y ago
    I'm not aware of very many "serious people" advocating having as many kids as possible on the grounds that children are fun.

toothbrush 11y ago

This guy sounds less like a non-conformist and more like a really self-centred sociopath. I don't necessarily say that in a derogatory way though, and most of his advice, if pragmatic, sounds unsurprising. I think it boils down to "don't be a tool to other people's faces". I mean wow, this quote: "Treat your family fairly, but remember that relatives - especially older relatives - are the lords of empty threats. Despite all their criticism, they probably love you too much to do more than nag you." One would think he's doing a hostile takeover of a company!

verbin217 11y ago
I've come to exactly that conclusion about my family. I love them but frankly their concern for me translates into very little benefit for anyone. Also their criticisms were largely born of themselves and served primarily to limit me.
- busterarm 11y ago
  Same, but I'll take it one step further. I have never had an actual _conversation_ with my own mother (single parent home) who is now in her 70s. Every attempt at a discussion has always ended up without her actually trying to listen and heaping on (berating) criticism that is either coming from her own shortcomings/fears (and she's a very fearful person) or she'll interrupt me and heap on criticism based on what she thinks I'm going to say. At least that's how it's been since I was too big for her to continue to beat me. There hasn't been a shred of concern for my own interests and goals and in my 30s I don't expect that to change from her. She's been trying to break up my older brother's marriage for near 20 years (after successfully driving his previous partner away and a few of mine). She wasn't invited to my brother's wedding and if I ever meet someone that I care about again, she will not get to meet them. Ever. If I were more cynical, I would say that every time our goals aren't lock-step with her goals for us, she makes a concerted effort for us to fail, but I imagine that she really thinks she has the best of intentions. She is just crazy. So sure, love your family, but that doesn't mean your family is good for you. If your family isn't good for you, limit their ability to do damage in your life. If you can't do that, cut them off.

austinjp 11y ago

tl;dr: choose your battles; work hard; kiss ass. Doesn't feel very non-conformist to me. However i do like his appreciation of the role of luck, although even that was cursory. All a bit self-congratulatory, and not much to surprise.

cpkpad 11y ago
As a serious non-conformist, those were actually the hardest lessons to learn. I changed the clothing I wear (which doesn't matter much to me), how I communicate, and stopped alienating people over things which don't matter. That me non-conform on the things which do matter a lot more and a lot more successfully.
coldtea 11y ago
>tl;dr: choose your battles; work hard; kiss ass. Doesn't feel very non-conformist to me. It's the Horatio Alger school of non-conformism...
- fnordfnordfnord 11y ago
  That gave me a chuckle. I see a little Machiavelli and some Sun Tzu in there too though.

calibraxis 11y ago

Ironic that every author pic on that site seems to show at least a dress shirt, and commonly a suit. (I'm sure it looks nice, but such clothing undeniably is used to signal conformity, and these authors conform to a dress code.) Then, "Most workplaces are not democracies. This is very good news..." advising: "make yourself invaluable to key superiors, who will in turn protect and promote you" and "Spend the first year of any job convincing your employer he was right to hire you..." (He's right, workplaces are unusually totalitarian: top-down dominance structures. Hence advice to pleasure your boss.) These right-wing "libertarians" are conformists. To recruit, they clumsily imitate social justice movements (like anarchism) where people actually do challenge the status quo. Their arguments against democracy rely on misconceptions like "US is a democracy"; or "democracy=voting", instead of say consensus.

keithpeter 11y ago
Yes, I saw the stock photo with the suit/tie. But then the text does mention shorts/pumps. So I imagine that the stock photo is an example of conforming in small details. Quote from item 12: "Modern societies are huge, anonymous, and forgetful.". Perhaps not so much in the future? Item 15 was lovely. I'm off out now on a nice autumn day in the UK to find some awesomeness. There is Rugby, and the trees are turning colour.
coldtea 11y ago
>Ironic that every author pic on that site seems to show at least a dress shirt, and commonly a suit. (I'm sure it looks nice, but such clothing undeniably is used to signal conformity, and these authors conform to a dress code.) In this day and age you're actually a non-conformist in most situations if you wear a suit. Especially as everyone else, even the President often, wears some casual clothes to look non-conformist.
switch007 11y ago
> Hence advice to pleasure your boss. I'm dedicated, but not /that/ dedicated.

x5n1 11y ago

Americans believe in myths about their non-conformist culture. Fact is that all cultures are highly conformist. And Americans are highly conformist in their highly consumerist culture that expresses non-conformity as a key aspect of the culture as a way to stimulate thought and creative destruction. However, at the same time there are huge barriers to taking full advantage of the non-conformist culture which is mainly money. To get money you have to conform, and to get more money you have to conform even more... while at the same time being individualistic and non-conformist in your thinking.

cpkpad 11y ago
Conformist lets you hit 6 figures easily. Going beyond, non-conformists have the advantage.

benihana 11y ago

I couldn't tell if this was real or satire until the last sentence. I mean, it reads like not very subtle satire - like a 14 year old snowflake on tumblr wrote it. But people in the comments there and here are taking it seriously. And it's really not that much of a stretch to believe someone in Academia would actually think this way and publish it.

johan_larson 11y ago
The word that comes to mind is "self-congratulatory".

ZenoArrow 11y ago

The importance of non-conformity is basically zero. If you enjoy something, does it matter how many or how few feel the same? Sure, it's nice when you have shared interests with others, but it's doesn't matter if they're not. Your interests do not have to define who you are, do not have to define how you interact with others. Preconceived notions of worth based on popularity will only cloud your view of what's enjoyable to you.

snitko 11y ago
Non conformity is not something you choose as a tool (if you're a thinking adult of course). It's a consequence of your beliefs and reasoning, which you will not give up no matter the benefits.
- ZenoArrow 11y ago
  No, it's a label, and a useless one at that. Everyone is likely to have a mix of niche and mainstream interests, when they stop concerning themselves with fitting into a narrow vision of who they are. Can you still be a non-conformist if you have similar interests to the mainstream?
  - dragonwriter 11y ago
    A person who isn't concerned with confirming isn't s noon-conformist, someone who is actively concerned with not conforming is. You can be a non-conformist and have mainstream interests, but just as a conformist will neglect non-mainstream interests for the sake of conformity, a non-conformist will do the reverse. Now people will get labeled by others as conformist or non-conformist based on outward signs, and this will often be overly inclusive since someone who is neutral to conformity cannot, in some cases, easily be distinguished outwardly from a conformist, if their interests are mainstream, or a non-conformist, if they are not.
    - ZenoArrow 11y ago
      When people attach the label of non-conformist to themselves, what must they do to maintain that label? To me, most labels we attach to ourselves requires a certain level of maintenance. If I call myself a geek I have attached that label to certain interests I have, if those interests change does the label lose its meaning? What I'm really saying is that a self-identified non-conformist has influenced their tastes in the future, whether they admit it or not. If that label is applied by others then it need not have the same effect.

sarciszewski 11y ago

What exactly makes you a non-conformist? - Do you wear your pants on your chest and shirts on your legs? - Do you actively proclaim that pedophilia is perfectly acceptable? In my opinion, non-conformist is just another label, which sounds awfully conformist when you think about it. Some people conform for stupid reasons (e.g. a need to feel accepted), but sometimes you find a group of like-minded individuals with similar interests. What then? Do you conform or not? What if you earnestly have the same interests? Simple solution: How about just do/like whatever you like, and don't try to make everyone think you're a special snowflake? Because the majority of people in the world frankly don't give a shit. You like 70's music? You like trashy horror flicks? You like furry art? Good for you. Continue to like it and stop trying to cast it as a radical act.

verbin217 11y ago
"How about just do/like whatever you like, and don't try to make everyone think you're a special snowflake" So... be a non-conformist? A non-conformist maintains a notion of themselves as such not because they're trying to be a special snow-flake. They need a concept with which to analyze their problems. It's actually really hard to just do what you like and get away with it. Like you said, "the majority of people in the world frankly don't give a shit." No one out there is trying to figure out how to reward you for something they don't understand. Even if it's insanely valuable. There will always be rewards for simply adapting yourself to an existing concept. Anyone not doing that pays a significant penalty for which the conformist world is entirely ignorant. They won't care and they won't help you deal with it. Hence, non-conformists converge-on but don't necessarily conform-to this stereotype. The one in the corner complaining about the conformists.

littletimmy 11y ago

I quite dislike when people think of themselves this much. I'm a non-conformist / I'm a conformist / I'm an introvert/ I'm an extrovert / I'm a xyz / I'm an xzy... No one fucking cares. There's self-reflection, and then there's self-absorbed blowing your own trumpet. The latter is decidedly repulsive. Coming from an Asian culture, I notice that Americans are particularly inclined to be this self-absorbed, wonder why.

zero-rated 11y ago

Anyone who wants a serious non-conformist guide should absolutely, definitely read Disciplined Minds[1] by Jeff Schmidt. What an important book. [1] http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0742516857/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?qid=1443389466&sr=8-1&pi=SL75_QL70&keywords=disciplined+minds http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0742516857/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?qid=...