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> Wow... how... how do you fix a place like this? How do you move such a medieval religious society into freedom? Not a good idea. The Middle East has had a su

> Wow... how... how do you fix a place like this? How do you move such a medieval religious society into freedom? Not a good idea. The Middle East has had a succession of "enlightened" despots who attempted to rid their countries of Islam. Islam is not just a faith for these people, it's a way of life, so well entrenched in the social fabric that all these rulers managed to do was to inflict even worse human rights violations and galvanize the population against the demon West. You have to let them find their own way. It may take them a few hundred years, but eventually their society will slowly pry open. The external threats to their way of life will have to cease, as long as they feel like they're under attack by the West, they'll just cocoon off and just not allow any influences in. Probably the best thing that could happen in this regard is a permanent collapse in oil prices, though that would likely cause a lot of people to starve. Things would get a lot worse for them before they get better. I read an article recently about how the Saud family is trying their hardest to prepare for a post-oil world. > Is there a simple explanation for why the Christian West moved to relative secularism a couple centuries ago while Saudi Arabia has remained so medieval, despite oil-powered industrialisation? Because colonialism. Europe brought industry to the rest of the world at the point of a gun. An excellent book to read on this topic is Fields of Blood by Karen Armstrong. http://www.amazon.com/Fields-Blood-Religion-History-Violence/dp/0307946967 http://www.amazon.com/Fields-Blood-Religion-History-Violence...

mahyarm 11y ago
So how did turkey happen?
- mercurial 11y ago
  Turkey happened because of Attarturk, at a time where he had the army with him, and where the Ottoman empire was disintegrating. Presumably, this made it very difficult for conservative forces to oppose the radical campaign of modernization and europeanisation he engaged into.
  - aws_ls 11y ago
    Quora has some good answers, which shed light on Ataturk's personality[1]. Wonder, why in that part of the world, there were so few such personalities. Actually, Iran was denied of it's democratically elected leader, Mohammad Mosaddegh, by UK and supported by US (TPAJAX project)[2]. [1] https://www.quora.com/Turkey-country/Was-Mustafa-Kemal-Ataturk-a-good-man https://www.quora.com/Turkey-country/Was-Mustafa-Kemal-Atatu... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9ta...
KaiserPro 11y ago
that neatly misses out the role of the otterman empire. the Middle East is the way it is because we (NATO et al) dicked about repeatedly. Iran is like it is, because we overthrew a democratically elected government to install the Shah. (operation AJAX) Iraq is bollocksed because we gave arms to them to fight Iran in a war that turned religious. Saudi Arabia is the way it is because there is an alliance between the US promising full military protection in return for oil. Libia is fucked because we helped overthrow a dictator, pumped in arms and then left a power vacuum. Syria is in shit because its a proxy war with russia, iran, SA, Qatar and "the west". We've all been pumping arms into there and wonder why its turned into a shitshow (yes, ISIS are driving around in armoured cars that we, the UK bought for them, they were the rebels yearning for democracy) There are more, but its too depressing to right. The main take away is that our interventionism is nothing to do with freedom, religious or otherwise. its to do with influence. We want a government that we can control.

mahyarm 11y ago

So how did turkey happen?

mercurial 11y ago
Turkey happened because of Attarturk, at a time where he had the army with him, and where the Ottoman empire was disintegrating. Presumably, this made it very difficult for conservative forces to oppose the radical campaign of modernization and europeanisation he engaged into.
- aws_ls 11y ago
  Quora has some good answers, which shed light on Ataturk's personality[1]. Wonder, why in that part of the world, there were so few such personalities. Actually, Iran was denied of it's democratically elected leader, Mohammad Mosaddegh, by UK and supported by US (TPAJAX project)[2]. [1] https://www.quora.com/Turkey-country/Was-Mustafa-Kemal-Ataturk-a-good-man https://www.quora.com/Turkey-country/Was-Mustafa-Kemal-Atatu... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9ta...

KaiserPro 11y ago

that neatly misses out the role of the otterman empire. the Middle East is the way it is because we (NATO et al) dicked about repeatedly. Iran is like it is, because we overthrew a democratically elected government to install the Shah. (operation AJAX) Iraq is bollocksed because we gave arms to them to fight Iran in a war that turned religious. Saudi Arabia is the way it is because there is an alliance between the US promising full military protection in return for oil. Libia is fucked because we helped overthrow a dictator, pumped in arms and then left a power vacuum. Syria is in shit because its a proxy war with russia, iran, SA, Qatar and "the west". We've all been pumping arms into there and wonder why its turned into a shitshow (yes, ISIS are driving around in armoured cars that we, the UK bought for them, they were the rebels yearning for democracy) There are more, but its too depressing to right. The main take away is that our interventionism is nothing to do with freedom, religious or otherwise. its to do with influence. We want a government that we can control.