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> Well at the current rate of poaching, elephants would be extinct in the next 10-20 years. And considering the corruption levels in many of these countries, ye

> Well at the current rate of poaching, elephants would be extinct in the next 10-20 years. And considering the corruption levels in many of these countries, yes, it's consumer markets that have to get involved. Or you could let African countries farm them and have loads of them, just like you have loads of pigs and sheep and cattle and all the other commercially farmed animals which somehow are ethically different. Instead you create a "War on Drugs" situation, which not only is hugely ineffective at solving the problem, it empowers the criminal organisations within the country that grows the product. Replace Mexican cartels with African poachers. Now not only are we unable to make money from the animals, we're losing money having to pay for rangers, and at the end of it lose the animals themselves to the inexorable attrition from the poachers (as in the White Rhino). Then everyone in the West has a fat tut-tut about what a shame it is for the animal to go extinct, while refusing to accept farming as a less ethically palatable but more effective means of preventing extinction, and we just move onto the next animal. > It's not a 'commercial' product when the ivory comes from illegal sources. It is a commercial product because there's a market for it and people are buying it. It may be illegal, but it's still being bought and sold. Not only that but in the past we (South Africa) have been able to release limited amounts of stockpiled ivory to be available for sale, but these kinds of agreements work to make that impossible. > On the large scale of things, it would hardly make a difference for the living standards. Africa needs every bit it can get to help development and be able to become an economic power with its own valuable and unique exports. Even if it just helps a few thousand people and their families be independent and contributing to Africa's growth, that matters, and dismissing it comes from a position of real privilege.

adamnemecek 11y ago
> Or you could let African countries farm them and have loads of them, just like you have loads of pigs and sheep and cattle and all the other commercially farmed animals which somehow are ethically different. Do you know much about elephant husbandry? If you do, can you please talk about some of the possible issues with your proposal and how you would solve them? Also, do you really believe that it's the legality of ivory sales that's stopping the people who would become elephant farmers from being farmers? > Instead you create a "War on Drugs" situation, which not only is hugely ineffective at solving the problem, it empowers the criminal organisations within the country that grows the product. No, no it's not. If someone wants to buy heroin, the only thing that will scratch that itch is heroin. That is not the same with ivory as the potential customers can buy something else. The situation is similar to the U.S. ban on sales of Kinder Surprise eggs. What do you think is the size of the black market for Kinder Surprise eggs? > Not only that but in the past we (South Africa) have been able to release limited amounts of stockpiled ivory to be available for sale, You realize that these are just increasing the demand right? The current poaching crisis is generally attributed to the 2008 CITES reclassification of ivory which let some African countries sell their stockpiles to China and Japan. This increased the demand and poaching has skyrocketed as a result. > Africa needs every bit it can get to help development and be able to become an economic power with its own valuable and unique exports. Again, do you really think that there are that many people who would pick up elephant farming if it became possible to sell ivory? > Even if it just helps a few thousand people and their families be independent and contributing to Africa's growth, that matters, and dismissing it comes from a position of real privilege. Can you also talk about how this proposal would prevent poaching of elephants in the wild?
- klagermkii 11y ago
  > Also, do you really believe that it's the legality of ivory sales that's stopping the people who would become elephant farmers from being farmers? Yes. This isn't like growing marijuana where your investment is relatively small, and you can just quickly grow it hydroponically in your shed under lights. No one is going to grow and hide an elephant in their shed. It takes years and investment and if you know you can't sell it at the end of that no one will try. I'll give you an example of someone who was trying to farm rhino, but then these kinds of bans kick in and make it unviable: http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/SAs-ban-on-trade-of-rhino-horn-under-attack-in-court-20150922 http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/SAs-ban-on-trade-of-r... > If someone wants to buy heroin, the only thing that will scratch that itch is heroin. That is not the same with ivory as the potential customers can buy something else. But they don't. They want ivory and they're prepared to pay for ivory. And they'll pay $1500+ for their little ivory figurines. Are they paying that for a hit of heroin? Because if you can't even stop the financial might of street bums from buying drugs, how are you planning to stop the relatively rich Chinese buyers of ivory?
  - adamnemecek 11y ago
    > No one is going to grow and hide an elephant in their shed. It takes years and investment and if you know you can't sell it at the end of that no one will try. So what you are saying is that this money would not really be going to help that many people, mostly only the people who currently already own large swaths of land, is that correct? > But they don't. They would if ivory was harder to obtain. Again, you don't see a black market for Kinder Surprise eggs. > They want ivory and they're prepared to pay for ivory. No, they want an antique or an art object. Or to show their wealth. There are many other ways of achieving that. If Ferraris became illegal, people would buy Lamborghinis.
hugh4 11y ago
Obvious problems with elephant farming, as an industry: 1. You need very large fences to keep elephants in. 2. Elephants eat a lot. 3. Elephants take about fifteen years to grow to full size. 4. Elephants don't breed very often. 5. You only get one pair of tusks per elephant.
- rgovind 11y ago
  1. You need very large fences to keep elephants in. You just dig ditches around the farms.
- kalleboo 11y ago
  > 5. You only get one pair of tusks per elephant. Actually, tusks are continually growing, like our hair and nails. I've read proposals to farm a "sustainable" amount of tusk (Google says they grow 15 cm per year). The Chinese market isn't looking for huge tusks for display but rather a powder to put in traditional remedies.
  - hugh4 11y ago
    Okay, I stand corrected on that one. However, the Chinese traditional medicine market would do just as well with chalk dust, I assume.
  - adamnemecek 11y ago
    > Chinese market isn't looking for huge tusks for display but rather a powder to put in traditional remedies. It's both actually. I believe that it's actually mostly bought in the form of carved ivory and to a lesser extent for powder for traditional remedies.

adamnemecek 11y ago

> Or you could let African countries farm them and have loads of them, just like you have loads of pigs and sheep and cattle and all the other commercially farmed animals which somehow are ethically different. Do you know much about elephant husbandry? If you do, can you please talk about some of the possible issues with your proposal and how you would solve them? Also, do you really believe that it's the legality of ivory sales that's stopping the people who would become elephant farmers from being farmers? > Instead you create a "War on Drugs" situation, which not only is hugely ineffective at solving the problem, it empowers the criminal organisations within the country that grows the product. No, no it's not. If someone wants to buy heroin, the only thing that will scratch that itch is heroin. That is not the same with ivory as the potential customers can buy something else. The situation is similar to the U.S. ban on sales of Kinder Surprise eggs. What do you think is the size of the black market for Kinder Surprise eggs? > Not only that but in the past we (South Africa) have been able to release limited amounts of stockpiled ivory to be available for sale, You realize that these are just increasing the demand right? The current poaching crisis is generally attributed to the 2008 CITES reclassification of ivory which let some African countries sell their stockpiles to China and Japan. This increased the demand and poaching has skyrocketed as a result. > Africa needs every bit it can get to help development and be able to become an economic power with its own valuable and unique exports. Again, do you really think that there are that many people who would pick up elephant farming if it became possible to sell ivory? > Even if it just helps a few thousand people and their families be independent and contributing to Africa's growth, that matters, and dismissing it comes from a position of real privilege. Can you also talk about how this proposal would prevent poaching of elephants in the wild?

klagermkii 11y ago
> Also, do you really believe that it's the legality of ivory sales that's stopping the people who would become elephant farmers from being farmers? Yes. This isn't like growing marijuana where your investment is relatively small, and you can just quickly grow it hydroponically in your shed under lights. No one is going to grow and hide an elephant in their shed. It takes years and investment and if you know you can't sell it at the end of that no one will try. I'll give you an example of someone who was trying to farm rhino, but then these kinds of bans kick in and make it unviable: http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/SAs-ban-on-trade-of-rhino-horn-under-attack-in-court-20150922 http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/SAs-ban-on-trade-of-r... > If someone wants to buy heroin, the only thing that will scratch that itch is heroin. That is not the same with ivory as the potential customers can buy something else. But they don't. They want ivory and they're prepared to pay for ivory. And they'll pay $1500+ for their little ivory figurines. Are they paying that for a hit of heroin? Because if you can't even stop the financial might of street bums from buying drugs, how are you planning to stop the relatively rich Chinese buyers of ivory?
- adamnemecek 11y ago
  > No one is going to grow and hide an elephant in their shed. It takes years and investment and if you know you can't sell it at the end of that no one will try. So what you are saying is that this money would not really be going to help that many people, mostly only the people who currently already own large swaths of land, is that correct? > But they don't. They would if ivory was harder to obtain. Again, you don't see a black market for Kinder Surprise eggs. > They want ivory and they're prepared to pay for ivory. No, they want an antique or an art object. Or to show their wealth. There are many other ways of achieving that. If Ferraris became illegal, people would buy Lamborghinis.

hugh4 11y ago

Obvious problems with elephant farming, as an industry: 1. You need very large fences to keep elephants in. 2. Elephants eat a lot. 3. Elephants take about fifteen years to grow to full size. 4. Elephants don't breed very often. 5. You only get one pair of tusks per elephant.

rgovind 11y ago
1. You need very large fences to keep elephants in. You just dig ditches around the farms.
kalleboo 11y ago
> 5. You only get one pair of tusks per elephant. Actually, tusks are continually growing, like our hair and nails. I've read proposals to farm a "sustainable" amount of tusk (Google says they grow 15 cm per year). The Chinese market isn't looking for huge tusks for display but rather a powder to put in traditional remedies.
- hugh4 11y ago
  Okay, I stand corrected on that one. However, the Chinese traditional medicine market would do just as well with chalk dust, I assume.
- adamnemecek 11y ago
  > Chinese market isn't looking for huge tusks for display but rather a powder to put in traditional remedies. It's both actually. I believe that it's actually mostly bought in the form of carved ivory and to a lesser extent for powder for traditional remedies.