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Great job guys, east and west meet to talk about an African issue without involving Africa at all. The US is all happy to try and push for their own beef expor

Great job guys, east and west meet to talk about an African issue without involving Africa at all. The US is all happy to try and push for their own beef exports from cattle raised in relatively poor conditions, but when you have a commercial animal product that is from Africa and could provide a much needed export, everyone suddenly discovers their morals.

adamnemecek 11y ago
> east and west meet to talk about an African issue without involving Africa at all. Well at the current rate of poaching, elephants would be extinct in the next 10-20 years. And considering the corruption levels in many of these countries, yes, it's the consumer markets that have to solve this. > when you have a commercial animal product that is from Africa and could provide a much needed export, It's not a 'commercial' product when the ivory comes from illegal sources. Would you be for legalization of cocaine to help the South American economy? > would provide a much needed export, On the large scale of things, it would hardly make a difference for the living standards.
- klagermkii 11y ago
  > Well at the current rate of poaching, elephants would be extinct in the next 10-20 years. And considering the corruption levels in many of these countries, yes, it's consumer markets that have to get involved. Or you could let African countries farm them and have loads of them, just like you have loads of pigs and sheep and cattle and all the other commercially farmed animals which somehow are ethically different. Instead you create a "War on Drugs" situation, which not only is hugely ineffective at solving the problem, it empowers the criminal organisations within the country that grows the product. Replace Mexican cartels with African poachers. Now not only are we unable to make money from the animals, we're losing money having to pay for rangers, and at the end of it lose the animals themselves to the inexorable attrition from the poachers (as in the White Rhino). Then everyone in the West has a fat tut-tut about what a shame it is for the animal to go extinct, while refusing to accept farming as a less ethically palatable but more effective means of preventing extinction, and we just move onto the next animal. > It's not a 'commercial' product when the ivory comes from illegal sources. It is a commercial product because there's a market for it and people are buying it. It may be illegal, but it's still being bought and sold. Not only that but in the past we (South Africa) have been able to release limited amounts of stockpiled ivory to be available for sale, but these kinds of agreements work to make that impossible. > On the large scale of things, it would hardly make a difference for the living standards. Africa needs every bit it can get to help development and be able to become an economic power with its own valuable and unique exports. Even if it just helps a few thousand people and their families be independent and contributing to Africa's growth, that matters, and dismissing it comes from a position of real privilege.
  - adamnemecek 11y ago
    > Or you could let African countries farm them and have loads of them, just like you have loads of pigs and sheep and cattle and all the other commercially farmed animals which somehow are ethically different. Do you know much about elephant husbandry? If you do, can you please talk about some of the possible issues with your proposal and how you would solve them? Also, do you really believe that it's the legality of ivory sales that's stopping the people who would become elephant farmers from being farmers? > Instead you create a "War on Drugs" situation, which not only is hugely ineffective at solving the problem, it empowers the criminal organisations within the country that grows the product. No, no it's not. If someone wants to buy heroin, the only thing that will scratch that itch is heroin. That is not the same with ivory as the potential customers can buy something else. The situation is similar to the U.S. ban on sales of Kinder Surprise eggs. What do you think is the size of the black market for Kinder Surprise eggs? > Not only that but in the past we (South Africa) have been able to release limited amounts of stockpiled ivory to be available for sale, You realize that these are just increasing the demand right? The current poaching crisis is generally attributed to the 2008 CITES reclassification of ivory which let some African countries sell their stockpiles to China and Japan. This increased the demand and poaching has skyrocketed as a result. > Africa needs every bit it can get to help development and be able to become an economic power with its own valuable and unique exports. Again, do you really think that there are that many people who would pick up elephant farming if it became possible to sell ivory? > Even if it just helps a few thousand people and their families be independent and contributing to Africa's growth, that matters, and dismissing it comes from a position of real privilege. Can you also talk about how this proposal would prevent poaching of elephants in the wild?
    - klagermkii 11y ago
      > Also, do you really believe that it's the legality of ivory sales that's stopping the people who would become elephant farmers from being farmers? Yes. This isn't like growing marijuana where your investment is relatively small, and you can just quickly grow it hydroponically in your shed under lights. No one is going to grow and hide an elephant in their shed. It takes years and investment and if you know you can't sell it at the end of that no one will try. I'll give you an example of someone who was trying to farm rhino, but then these kinds of bans kick in and make it unviable: http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/SAs-ban-on-trade-of-rhino-horn-under-attack-in-court-20150922 http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/SAs-ban-on-trade-of-r... > If someone wants to buy heroin, the only thing that will scratch that itch is heroin. That is not the same with ivory as the potential customers can buy something else. But they don't. They want ivory and they're prepared to pay for ivory. And they'll pay $1500+ for their little ivory figurines. Are they paying that for a hit of heroin? Because if you can't even stop the financial might of street bums from buying drugs, how are you planning to stop the relatively rich Chinese buyers of ivory?

adamnemecek 11y ago

> east and west meet to talk about an African issue without involving Africa at all. Well at the current rate of poaching, elephants would be extinct in the next 10-20 years. And considering the corruption levels in many of these countries, yes, it's the consumer markets that have to solve this. > when you have a commercial animal product that is from Africa and could provide a much needed export, It's not a 'commercial' product when the ivory comes from illegal sources. Would you be for legalization of cocaine to help the South American economy? > would provide a much needed export, On the large scale of things, it would hardly make a difference for the living standards.

klagermkii 11y ago
> Well at the current rate of poaching, elephants would be extinct in the next 10-20 years. And considering the corruption levels in many of these countries, yes, it's consumer markets that have to get involved. Or you could let African countries farm them and have loads of them, just like you have loads of pigs and sheep and cattle and all the other commercially farmed animals which somehow are ethically different. Instead you create a "War on Drugs" situation, which not only is hugely ineffective at solving the problem, it empowers the criminal organisations within the country that grows the product. Replace Mexican cartels with African poachers. Now not only are we unable to make money from the animals, we're losing money having to pay for rangers, and at the end of it lose the animals themselves to the inexorable attrition from the poachers (as in the White Rhino). Then everyone in the West has a fat tut-tut about what a shame it is for the animal to go extinct, while refusing to accept farming as a less ethically palatable but more effective means of preventing extinction, and we just move onto the next animal. > It's not a 'commercial' product when the ivory comes from illegal sources. It is a commercial product because there's a market for it and people are buying it. It may be illegal, but it's still being bought and sold. Not only that but in the past we (South Africa) have been able to release limited amounts of stockpiled ivory to be available for sale, but these kinds of agreements work to make that impossible. > On the large scale of things, it would hardly make a difference for the living standards. Africa needs every bit it can get to help development and be able to become an economic power with its own valuable and unique exports. Even if it just helps a few thousand people and their families be independent and contributing to Africa's growth, that matters, and dismissing it comes from a position of real privilege.
- adamnemecek 11y ago
  > Or you could let African countries farm them and have loads of them, just like you have loads of pigs and sheep and cattle and all the other commercially farmed animals which somehow are ethically different. Do you know much about elephant husbandry? If you do, can you please talk about some of the possible issues with your proposal and how you would solve them? Also, do you really believe that it's the legality of ivory sales that's stopping the people who would become elephant farmers from being farmers? > Instead you create a "War on Drugs" situation, which not only is hugely ineffective at solving the problem, it empowers the criminal organisations within the country that grows the product. No, no it's not. If someone wants to buy heroin, the only thing that will scratch that itch is heroin. That is not the same with ivory as the potential customers can buy something else. The situation is similar to the U.S. ban on sales of Kinder Surprise eggs. What do you think is the size of the black market for Kinder Surprise eggs? > Not only that but in the past we (South Africa) have been able to release limited amounts of stockpiled ivory to be available for sale, You realize that these are just increasing the demand right? The current poaching crisis is generally attributed to the 2008 CITES reclassification of ivory which let some African countries sell their stockpiles to China and Japan. This increased the demand and poaching has skyrocketed as a result. > Africa needs every bit it can get to help development and be able to become an economic power with its own valuable and unique exports. Again, do you really think that there are that many people who would pick up elephant farming if it became possible to sell ivory? > Even if it just helps a few thousand people and their families be independent and contributing to Africa's growth, that matters, and dismissing it comes from a position of real privilege. Can you also talk about how this proposal would prevent poaching of elephants in the wild?
  - klagermkii 11y ago
    > Also, do you really believe that it's the legality of ivory sales that's stopping the people who would become elephant farmers from being farmers? Yes. This isn't like growing marijuana where your investment is relatively small, and you can just quickly grow it hydroponically in your shed under lights. No one is going to grow and hide an elephant in their shed. It takes years and investment and if you know you can't sell it at the end of that no one will try. I'll give you an example of someone who was trying to farm rhino, but then these kinds of bans kick in and make it unviable: http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/SAs-ban-on-trade-of-rhino-horn-under-attack-in-court-20150922 http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/SAs-ban-on-trade-of-r... > If someone wants to buy heroin, the only thing that will scratch that itch is heroin. That is not the same with ivory as the potential customers can buy something else. But they don't. They want ivory and they're prepared to pay for ivory. And they'll pay $1500+ for their little ivory figurines. Are they paying that for a hit of heroin? Because if you can't even stop the financial might of street bums from buying drugs, how are you planning to stop the relatively rich Chinese buyers of ivory?