5 ms·

I'm not going to excuse police for their actions, but I do know as a society we should value them much more. I say ramp up their salaries significantly but in

I'm not going to excuse police for their actions, but I do know as a society we should value them much more. I say ramp up their salaries significantly but increase oversight (body cameras, more automation, etc).

jMyles 11y ago
I surmise that this is precisely what will happen when we find a way to deploy police that does not involve the state (or state-like giant corporations).
ZanyProgrammer 11y ago
"I say ramp up their salaries significantly"-how are you going to pay for this? Do you think cops are grossly underpaid now?
- chillacy 11y ago
  It already seems pretty decent, a police sergeant can make over 100k (though officers start at 57k in LAPD as of today) http://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/LAPD-Salaries-E135741.htm http://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/LAPD-Salaries-E135741.htm
  - jMyles 11y ago
    It's not clear to me whether these figures include overtime, which often makes up a substantial part of the compensation for a police officer. I surmise that GP's comment is partly read to mean that overtime (ie, working 60+ hours a week sometimes!) is part of the way we don't treat police officers very well. It seems pretty clear to me that a police officer working a 24 hour shift is a liability.
    - danso 11y ago
      Uh...I don't think there are too many instances of cops working 24-hour shifts. Firefighters have 72-hour shifts but that includes bunking at the department. If you go to publicpay.ca.gov, you'll find the state wide databases of city and state employees. Police officers make up nearly all of the top non-executive positions. Second, police officers want overtime. If you've watched The Wire, there are more than a few scenes/threads in which eliminating overtime is seen as punishment to officers. This is also chronicled in David Simon's non-fiction book, "Homicide", which The Wire is heavily based off of. This is not to say that we shouldn't staff departments in a way that overtime isn't excessive. But I doubt you'll find much political support from the officers or their leaders on that. In fact, the use of overtimes is one of the best way for police officers to ensure a huge pension...Pensions are often calculated on based on the last year of a retiring officer's salary. So an officer who makes $64K base salary in his career can retire with $82K in annual retirement, by working $120,000 worth of overtime in his final year: http://www.nola.com/crime/baton-rouge/index.ssf/2015/05/how_a_police_officer_can_make.html http://www.nola.com/crime/baton-rouge/index.ssf/2015/05/how_...
      - jMyles 11y ago
        > I don't think there are too many instances of cops working 24-hour shifts. I think think of three departments off the top of my head, all in upstate NY, that have 24-hour shifts. > Second, police officers want overtime. Well, but that's only because of the financial incentive structure. It doesn't need to be this way.
        danso 11y ago
        > I think think of three departments off the top of my head, all in upstate NY, that have 24-hour shifts. Just curious, but who? > Well, but that's only because of the financial incentive structure. It doesn't need to be this way. Yes, but it's unlikely that you will be able to change the incentive mindset and system for the entire government (this affects teachers and firefighters, too), at least in a meaningful time frame compared to all the other things you could change about police practices.
roymurdock 11y ago
The median US police offer salary is $48k per year [1], placing them in the middle of the third income quintile. [2] This means the average cop earns more than ~50% of the rest of the country. This does not factor in healthy pensions that many police officers (and other government workers) receive upon retirement if they are able to make the necessary contributions and stay with the force long enough. [3] I know a firefighter who just retired and is now receiving $5,800 per month + ~$600 in social security for an annual income of ~$76k. Not bad for a retiree. I'm all for outfitting officers with more monitoring/surveillance gear, but what problem would an increased salary solve? [1] http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Police_Officer/Salary http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Police_Officer/Salar... [2] http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=330 http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Doc... [3] https://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/-aei-economic-perspective-march-2014_160053300510.pdf https://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/-aei-economic...
sgk284 11y ago
A lot of cops make a ton of money, doubly so outside of big cities. In a New Jersey coastal town where my parents live the cops start at $85k/yr. They never see any action. A few years back two of them saw a dead body and took months of paid leave because they were traumatized. Ultimately we just need to give them all body cameras and dismiss anything they say or do that isn't recorded.
- lifeisstillgood 11y ago
  Then why have a specialised privileged set of people held to a higher standard. Why not just slap body cameras on everyone and say "if you see a robbery, go round and ask some questions, we'll review the tapes later" Police (and others) are given special privileges but expected to act to a higher standard than the rest of us. Quite a lot of them do. It's like accountants and lawyers and doctors. Taking a random sample of doctors and a random sample of, say, HN readers, the doctors would be ... Better.
  - jMyles 11y ago
    > Then why have a specialised privileged set of people held to a higher standard. I know you are being facetious here, but in the internet age, I think this is an increasingly compelling question.
    - jschwartzi 11y ago
      What you're suggesting could be the start of anarchy, which is the absence of rulers but not necessarily of rules. If it were possible for anyone to gather evidence of a violation of a rule, then why have a specialist class? In the same vein, if it were possible to gain consent for a rule without a specialist class, then why have a government? The only problem with the elimination of the specialists is that we then must take over their responsibility to act justly. I often wonder if our society is capable of that yet.
      - lifeisstillgood 11y ago

jMyles 11y ago

I surmise that this is precisely what will happen when we find a way to deploy police that does not involve the state (or state-like giant corporations).

ZanyProgrammer 11y ago

"I say ramp up their salaries significantly"-how are you going to pay for this? Do you think cops are grossly underpaid now?

chillacy 11y ago
It already seems pretty decent, a police sergeant can make over 100k (though officers start at 57k in LAPD as of today) http://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/LAPD-Salaries-E135741.htm http://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/LAPD-Salaries-E135741.htm
- jMyles 11y ago
  It's not clear to me whether these figures include overtime, which often makes up a substantial part of the compensation for a police officer. I surmise that GP's comment is partly read to mean that overtime (ie, working 60+ hours a week sometimes!) is part of the way we don't treat police officers very well. It seems pretty clear to me that a police officer working a 24 hour shift is a liability.
  - danso 11y ago
    Uh...I don't think there are too many instances of cops working 24-hour shifts. Firefighters have 72-hour shifts but that includes bunking at the department. If you go to publicpay.ca.gov, you'll find the state wide databases of city and state employees. Police officers make up nearly all of the top non-executive positions. Second, police officers want overtime. If you've watched The Wire, there are more than a few scenes/threads in which eliminating overtime is seen as punishment to officers. This is also chronicled in David Simon's non-fiction book, "Homicide", which The Wire is heavily based off of. This is not to say that we shouldn't staff departments in a way that overtime isn't excessive. But I doubt you'll find much political support from the officers or their leaders on that. In fact, the use of overtimes is one of the best way for police officers to ensure a huge pension...Pensions are often calculated on based on the last year of a retiring officer's salary. So an officer who makes $64K base salary in his career can retire with $82K in annual retirement, by working $120,000 worth of overtime in his final year: http://www.nola.com/crime/baton-rouge/index.ssf/2015/05/how_a_police_officer_can_make.html http://www.nola.com/crime/baton-rouge/index.ssf/2015/05/how_...
    - jMyles 11y ago
      > I don't think there are too many instances of cops working 24-hour shifts. I think think of three departments off the top of my head, all in upstate NY, that have 24-hour shifts. > Second, police officers want overtime. Well, but that's only because of the financial incentive structure. It doesn't need to be this way.
      - danso 11y ago
        > I think think of three departments off the top of my head, all in upstate NY, that have 24-hour shifts. Just curious, but who? > Well, but that's only because of the financial incentive structure. It doesn't need to be this way. Yes, but it's unlikely that you will be able to change the incentive mindset and system for the entire government (this affects teachers and firefighters, too), at least in a meaningful time frame compared to all the other things you could change about police practices.

roymurdock 11y ago

The median US police offer salary is $48k per year [1], placing them in the middle of the third income quintile. [2] This means the average cop earns more than ~50% of the rest of the country. This does not factor in healthy pensions that many police officers (and other government workers) receive upon retirement if they are able to make the necessary contributions and stay with the force long enough. [3] I know a firefighter who just retired and is now receiving $5,800 per month + ~$600 in social security for an annual income of ~$76k. Not bad for a retiree. I'm all for outfitting officers with more monitoring/surveillance gear, but what problem would an increased salary solve? [1] http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Police_Officer/Salary http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Police_Officer/Salar... [2] http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=330 http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Doc... [3] https://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/-aei-economic-perspective-march-2014_160053300510.pdf https://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/-aei-economic...

sgk284 11y ago

A lot of cops make a ton of money, doubly so outside of big cities. In a New Jersey coastal town where my parents live the cops start at $85k/yr. They never see any action. A few years back two of them saw a dead body and took months of paid leave because they were traumatized. Ultimately we just need to give them all body cameras and dismiss anything they say or do that isn't recorded.

lifeisstillgood 11y ago
Then why have a specialised privileged set of people held to a higher standard. Why not just slap body cameras on everyone and say "if you see a robbery, go round and ask some questions, we'll review the tapes later" Police (and others) are given special privileges but expected to act to a higher standard than the rest of us. Quite a lot of them do. It's like accountants and lawyers and doctors. Taking a random sample of doctors and a random sample of, say, HN readers, the doctors would be ... Better.
- jMyles 11y ago
  > Then why have a specialised privileged set of people held to a higher standard. I know you are being facetious here, but in the internet age, I think this is an increasingly compelling question.
  - jschwartzi 11y ago
    What you're suggesting could be the start of anarchy, which is the absence of rulers but not necessarily of rules. If it were possible for anyone to gather evidence of a violation of a rule, then why have a specialist class? In the same vein, if it were possible to gain consent for a rule without a specialist class, then why have a government? The only problem with the elimination of the specialists is that we then must take over their responsibility to act justly. I often wonder if our society is capable of that yet.
    - lifeisstillgood 11y ago