4 ms·

Zero-Bullshit Method for Recruiting a Sales Force

57 points by takinola 11y ago

codys 11y ago
Not in sales, but: Author expects interviewees to "tell you what you want to hear", recommends requiring their W-2, admits that companies oversell themselves too, but doesn't appear to offer the interviewees the same insight into company data, expecting them instead to "probe for related information and same truths 20 different ways". Maybe I'm just a bit cynical (or not familiar with how sales works), but it seems that this is a mechanism to give an interviewer more cards. That said, it is an article from an interviewer's perspective, so I suppose that's a bit expected.
- jdp23 11y ago
  Yeah, he starts by talking about how the power dynamic is so key, especially in sales recruiting, and can get in the way. Good point. But as you say his proposed solutions all seem to put him, the interviewer, in more of a power position.
  - nickpsecurity 11y ago
    It's supposed to be because the company is doing it for their benefit. He's demonstrating being a salesperson as he describes it. ;)
- zdean 11y ago
  Actually he points out a number of questions the interviewee could/probably will ask in the section "Questions rock star sales reps ask". I think his overall point is that the best scenario is one where company/employee are well aligned...and whatever information gets you to finding that aligned relationship is the information you should seek/offer.
- emcrazyone 11y ago
  Totally agree. Author talks about bullshit when he, himself, spews it too. "Before the interview, have recruiting (or you can) ask the candidate to submit their W2 and fill it in with information that foots to their W2 — the previous years payroll — including commission in the last X-years they’ve been a sales rep." There is zero chance a seasoned job seeker who knows what they are doing regardless of the position would give out this kind of information. Interviewing is like playing poker. Why the hell would I show you my cards before placing a bet. It's my job to negotiate the most and it's the person doing the hiring's job to do their homework to figure out what the market bares and how much they can afford or are willing to spend on someone. I came away reading that article that the author is some pompous young buck who thinks he knows how to recruit. kids these days... yea, maybe I'm old fashion too but this seems more like a lack of plain old simple common sense.
  - notahacker 11y ago
    This might work for identifying steady transactional salespeople that are really desperate to work for a particular company, but the type of salesperson that's actually good at doing the $20million deals - a skilled negotiator who's selective about the leads they pursue - can and will think at best I'm getting lowballed on compensation; at worst I'm wasting my time justifying not closing any deals in two quarters of last year to an interviewer that doesn't understand how enterprise sales work if asked to produce a spreadsheet of their commission payments for the last couple of years. Especially since they know many commission schemes are far too opaque for the interviewer to achieve their stated intent of establishing deal size and volume, but there's one glaringly obvious figure the interviewer will get out of those W2 forms. The OP says that if those people won't apply it's a "bullet dodged", but I'm not convinced.
    - walshemj 11y ago
      You will only get the ones that desperately need a job and no sensible salesperson is going to give up there comp before you even start the negotiation.
joshuaellinger 11y ago
I am slightly surprised that it is legal to ask potential employees for W-2s. I guess it is not like health records but tax filings are in-general private. If I were asked for W-2s, I would respond by asking for the same information from the company on the existing sales reps.
- takinola 11y ago
  This is fairly standard for recruiting sales people. Sales is unique in that there is a clear metric to judge performance. A W-2 is incontrovertible proof that they have been able to hit their numbers. It's a great way to cut through the bullshit.
  - nickpsecurity 11y ago
    I have limited experience in sales but I agree. People look at all kinds of things for individuals and companies. I look at revenue, cash flow, and customer loyalty. Revenue for obvious reasons. Cash flow because it's what they're bringing in for real. Customer loyalty because it hints at what they can sustain and build on. For sales people, it might be what they made in terms of compensation plan and customer loyalty in terms of what they can bring to the new company. One thing not mentioned in the article, but which I've witnessed, is that great sales people often bring their customers with them to a new company if they can. One recent example from people I know involved a guy who moved to a competitor with literally over a million in sales. He just fed his customers's egos to get and keep their acquisitions then benefited when they sold their own companies on the change that mainly benefited him. Made a killing on this approach despite not even trying hard to get new customers lol. So, always worth remembering that this might happen if your product/service is interchangeable with others.
  - deleted 11y ago
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- deleted 11y ago
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- RyJones 11y ago
rl3 11y ago
I hope Mark Cranney (also an a16z partner) writes a follow-up article to this. It would only require a slight modification to the title, just swapping the word Recruiting out with Motivating: Mark Cranney walks up to the podium, looks at the crowd of fresh new recruits, and says, ‘I don’t give a fuck how well trained you are. If you don’t bring me five hundred thousand dollars a quarter, I’m putting a bullet in your head.’ [0] [0] https://medium.com/book-summaries/the-hard-thing-about-hard-things-82dd119d5b86 https://medium.com/book-summaries/the-hard-thing-about-hard-...
nickpsecurity 11y ago
Great article. Could use more research into these data-driven methods. I like how he comes up with something to cut through the BS. I also agree that Sales is a different animal than the rest: need recruiters, management, and so on specialized for handling them. That putting a bit more into sales than engineering is a good practice is supported by all the huge firms that did exactly that. Although, I recommend making sure your company delivers mostly on whatever sales people are promising. Can't overdo the gap between the two.
dmourati 11y ago
Taken aback by the assertion that recruiting would ask to see W2. I'm an engineer and have no idea how things work in sales but to me that would be a deal-breaker request. Do companies actually ask to see W2s? That seems really forward and inappropriate to me. In fact, if someone asked me to see my W2, I'd probably shoot the question right back at them.
- vacri 11y ago
  Plenty of engineers share their github repos as a 'portfolio' exhibiting their work quality.
- parasubvert 11y ago
  Sales people aren't negotiating their salary, which is usually pretty basic. They're negotiating their OTE (on target earnings) and EP (earnings potential). Their comp package will vary from year to year, but a hotshot that makes $1m a year by blowing out their quota consistently will want accelerators and the like in their comp, whereas the company will want proof they have done it before. The only way to prove your past sales performance beyond references (who will often lie) is to share proof of earnings.
lunaru 11y ago
Regarding W2s: I suppose expectations are different when you're in the sales world. I had a conversation with a marketing person the other day and she was surprised that engineers spend so much time during interviews. When I explained that we spend the time doing actual coding, whiteboarding designs, and doing in-depth technical discussions, her reaction was much like the reaction the HN crowd gets when W2s are mentioned. And it makes sense -- when NFL players are drafted, they're expected to go through a combine. Every occupation has a "prove it" moment during the interview process.
vlehto 11y ago
What happens when everybody is asking for W-2? If your company starts doing bad because there is some problem with the product(s), the sales force will be gone before you can blink an eye. They just can't take a hit to their record if they wish to stay employable. So when the company is in tough spot and should be selling very difficult to sell products and need that loyalty, there isn't any. I don't have any better alternatives. But this seems bit flawed.
barrkel 11y ago
"Start with dedicated sales recruiting to get the best sales force" This doesn't really jibe with my experience in a startup selling software to the financial sector. We got approximately nowhere until we were able to convince a sales guy to join us, who had connections all over the City. He got us a bunch of sales, dramatically increasing our revenue and that we can upsell later, and then recommended we bring in another guy. He in turn has run sales for some very large organizations, and cherry-picked another two people, one in the US, one in Luxembourg, who had a large number of pre-existing contacts in the banks we're trying to sell to. We're in a very good position to grow; it's back to us on the dev team to increase our feature set to close more deals (almost every customer wants this one little thing...) My point is: for enterprise sales, contacts are everything. If you've got a good product, you should be able to sell yourself to a good sales guy; and you can follow networks from there. However perhaps sales to the financial sector are a different category of sales to the ones the OP is talking about, where large numbers of bodies is more important.
cwilkes 11y ago
Odd that for a story that tells you to get data about sales people is ... surprisingly free of any detail on past experience on if it worked. Maybe the author just wants us to take it on faith? Also I chuckled at "two people connecting and talking about working together, being part of something larger than just themselves" which then turns into a "SHOW ME YOUR W2!!!" Honestly I thought the article was satire.
LatteForClosers 11y ago
Want to measure BS... (1) Get a life skill that used to be called reading people / empathy. If you don't have it, hire someone that does. (2) Hire more recruiters who actually read and evaluate resumes and ask strategic interview questions outside the cookie cutter 99% standard. (3) Stop scanning resumes for "key words". The day any great sales rep will show their W2, is the day when startups disclose all their financial records. Until then, I'd rather take a sales test (remember those?) that cannot test for empathy, drive, and creativity. Engineers commenting on this topic, I will just say this...great sales people have been selling $h!t since they were a kid. No different than great developers, you don't just learn sales by taking courses at Stanford. p.s. I stand behind my W2s, but I find this insulting to the true sales community. Especially in the Valley, where easy as pie "sales" roles at cos. with unicorn technology, an avalanche of inbound leads, or zero competition are landed because it's not about (say it with me) "what you know, but who one rushed with at Stanford".

57 points by takinola 11y ago

codys 11y ago

Not in sales, but: Author expects interviewees to "tell you what you want to hear", recommends requiring their W-2, admits that companies oversell themselves too, but doesn't appear to offer the interviewees the same insight into company data, expecting them instead to "probe for related information and same truths 20 different ways". Maybe I'm just a bit cynical (or not familiar with how sales works), but it seems that this is a mechanism to give an interviewer more cards. That said, it is an article from an interviewer's perspective, so I suppose that's a bit expected.

jdp23 11y ago
Yeah, he starts by talking about how the power dynamic is so key, especially in sales recruiting, and can get in the way. Good point. But as you say his proposed solutions all seem to put him, the interviewer, in more of a power position.
- nickpsecurity 11y ago
  It's supposed to be because the company is doing it for their benefit. He's demonstrating being a salesperson as he describes it. ;)
zdean 11y ago
Actually he points out a number of questions the interviewee could/probably will ask in the section "Questions rock star sales reps ask". I think his overall point is that the best scenario is one where company/employee are well aligned...and whatever information gets you to finding that aligned relationship is the information you should seek/offer.
emcrazyone 11y ago
Totally agree. Author talks about bullshit when he, himself, spews it too. "Before the interview, have recruiting (or you can) ask the candidate to submit their W2 and fill it in with information that foots to their W2 — the previous years payroll — including commission in the last X-years they’ve been a sales rep." There is zero chance a seasoned job seeker who knows what they are doing regardless of the position would give out this kind of information. Interviewing is like playing poker. Why the hell would I show you my cards before placing a bet. It's my job to negotiate the most and it's the person doing the hiring's job to do their homework to figure out what the market bares and how much they can afford or are willing to spend on someone. I came away reading that article that the author is some pompous young buck who thinks he knows how to recruit. kids these days... yea, maybe I'm old fashion too but this seems more like a lack of plain old simple common sense.
- notahacker 11y ago
  This might work for identifying steady transactional salespeople that are really desperate to work for a particular company, but the type of salesperson that's actually good at doing the $20million deals - a skilled negotiator who's selective about the leads they pursue - can and will think at best I'm getting lowballed on compensation; at worst I'm wasting my time justifying not closing any deals in two quarters of last year to an interviewer that doesn't understand how enterprise sales work if asked to produce a spreadsheet of their commission payments for the last couple of years. Especially since they know many commission schemes are far too opaque for the interviewer to achieve their stated intent of establishing deal size and volume, but there's one glaringly obvious figure the interviewer will get out of those W2 forms. The OP says that if those people won't apply it's a "bullet dodged", but I'm not convinced.
  - walshemj 11y ago
    You will only get the ones that desperately need a job and no sensible salesperson is going to give up there comp before you even start the negotiation.

joshuaellinger 11y ago

I am slightly surprised that it is legal to ask potential employees for W-2s. I guess it is not like health records but tax filings are in-general private. If I were asked for W-2s, I would respond by asking for the same information from the company on the existing sales reps.

takinola 11y ago
This is fairly standard for recruiting sales people. Sales is unique in that there is a clear metric to judge performance. A W-2 is incontrovertible proof that they have been able to hit their numbers. It's a great way to cut through the bullshit.
- nickpsecurity 11y ago
  I have limited experience in sales but I agree. People look at all kinds of things for individuals and companies. I look at revenue, cash flow, and customer loyalty. Revenue for obvious reasons. Cash flow because it's what they're bringing in for real. Customer loyalty because it hints at what they can sustain and build on. For sales people, it might be what they made in terms of compensation plan and customer loyalty in terms of what they can bring to the new company. One thing not mentioned in the article, but which I've witnessed, is that great sales people often bring their customers with them to a new company if they can. One recent example from people I know involved a guy who moved to a competitor with literally over a million in sales. He just fed his customers's egos to get and keep their acquisitions then benefited when they sold their own companies on the change that mainly benefited him. Made a killing on this approach despite not even trying hard to get new customers lol. So, always worth remembering that this might happen if your product/service is interchangeable with others.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
RyJones 11y ago

rl3 11y ago

I hope Mark Cranney (also an a16z partner) writes a follow-up article to this. It would only require a slight modification to the title, just swapping the word Recruiting out with Motivating: Mark Cranney walks up to the podium, looks at the crowd of fresh new recruits, and says, ‘I don’t give a fuck how well trained you are. If you don’t bring me five hundred thousand dollars a quarter, I’m putting a bullet in your head.’ [0] [0] https://medium.com/book-summaries/the-hard-thing-about-hard-things-82dd119d5b86 https://medium.com/book-summaries/the-hard-thing-about-hard-...

nickpsecurity 11y ago

Great article. Could use more research into these data-driven methods. I like how he comes up with something to cut through the BS. I also agree that Sales is a different animal than the rest: need recruiters, management, and so on specialized for handling them. That putting a bit more into sales than engineering is a good practice is supported by all the huge firms that did exactly that. Although, I recommend making sure your company delivers mostly on whatever sales people are promising. Can't overdo the gap between the two.

dmourati 11y ago

Taken aback by the assertion that recruiting would ask to see W2. I'm an engineer and have no idea how things work in sales but to me that would be a deal-breaker request. Do companies actually ask to see W2s? That seems really forward and inappropriate to me. In fact, if someone asked me to see my W2, I'd probably shoot the question right back at them.

vacri 11y ago
Plenty of engineers share their github repos as a 'portfolio' exhibiting their work quality.
parasubvert 11y ago
Sales people aren't negotiating their salary, which is usually pretty basic. They're negotiating their OTE (on target earnings) and EP (earnings potential). Their comp package will vary from year to year, but a hotshot that makes $1m a year by blowing out their quota consistently will want accelerators and the like in their comp, whereas the company will want proof they have done it before. The only way to prove your past sales performance beyond references (who will often lie) is to share proof of earnings.

lunaru 11y ago

Regarding W2s: I suppose expectations are different when you're in the sales world. I had a conversation with a marketing person the other day and she was surprised that engineers spend so much time during interviews. When I explained that we spend the time doing actual coding, whiteboarding designs, and doing in-depth technical discussions, her reaction was much like the reaction the HN crowd gets when W2s are mentioned. And it makes sense -- when NFL players are drafted, they're expected to go through a combine. Every occupation has a "prove it" moment during the interview process.

vlehto 11y ago

What happens when everybody is asking for W-2? If your company starts doing bad because there is some problem with the product(s), the sales force will be gone before you can blink an eye. They just can't take a hit to their record if they wish to stay employable. So when the company is in tough spot and should be selling very difficult to sell products and need that loyalty, there isn't any. I don't have any better alternatives. But this seems bit flawed.

barrkel 11y ago

"Start with dedicated sales recruiting to get the best sales force" This doesn't really jibe with my experience in a startup selling software to the financial sector. We got approximately nowhere until we were able to convince a sales guy to join us, who had connections all over the City. He got us a bunch of sales, dramatically increasing our revenue and that we can upsell later, and then recommended we bring in another guy. He in turn has run sales for some very large organizations, and cherry-picked another two people, one in the US, one in Luxembourg, who had a large number of pre-existing contacts in the banks we're trying to sell to. We're in a very good position to grow; it's back to us on the dev team to increase our feature set to close more deals (almost every customer wants this one little thing...) My point is: for enterprise sales, contacts are everything. If you've got a good product, you should be able to sell yourself to a good sales guy; and you can follow networks from there. However perhaps sales to the financial sector are a different category of sales to the ones the OP is talking about, where large numbers of bodies is more important.

cwilkes 11y ago

Odd that for a story that tells you to get data about sales people is ... surprisingly free of any detail on past experience on if it worked. Maybe the author just wants us to take it on faith? Also I chuckled at "two people connecting and talking about working together, being part of something larger than just themselves" which then turns into a "SHOW ME YOUR W2!!!" Honestly I thought the article was satire.

LatteForClosers 11y ago

Want to measure BS... (1) Get a life skill that used to be called reading people / empathy. If you don't have it, hire someone that does. (2) Hire more recruiters who actually read and evaluate resumes and ask strategic interview questions outside the cookie cutter 99% standard. (3) Stop scanning resumes for "key words". The day any great sales rep will show their W2, is the day when startups disclose all their financial records. Until then, I'd rather take a sales test (remember those?) that cannot test for empathy, drive, and creativity. Engineers commenting on this topic, I will just say this...great sales people have been selling $h!t since they were a kid. No different than great developers, you don't just learn sales by taking courses at Stanford. p.s. I stand behind my W2s, but I find this insulting to the true sales community. Especially in the Valley, where easy as pie "sales" roles at cos. with unicorn technology, an avalanche of inbound leads, or zero competition are landed because it's not about (say it with me) "what you know, but who one rushed with at Stanford".