5 ms·

> To me, the biggest problem is that most of these men were not engaging in behavior I could point out to someone else as "harassment." I would be interested i

> To me, the biggest problem is that most of these men were not engaging in behavior I could point out to someone else as "harassment." I would be interested in hearing which behaviors they were engaging in to bother you.

Mz 11y ago
One man asked me for a date. He was a very nice man and was doing nothing wrong under company policy. He was a high level IT professional. He worked in a different department. He had no authority over me. There were plenty of people at the company who were married to each other. There was absolutely nothing "wrong" with him asking me for a date. But he was also the only individual I met in over 5 years at the company who knew what GIS was before I explained it. I have a certificate in GIS. I wanted to get into the IT department. It was clear to me that a senior programmer asking me for a date was not bad behavior per se on his part, but it nonetheless was not only not going to open doors for me, it was going to help close them. His interest in dating me was going to make it harder, not easier, to try to get an IT job. I never did get an IT job. I ultimately left the company. (Edit: IT jobs paid about 2-4 times what I was making. Had I gotten an IT job, I likely would have stayed at the company.) Another man, also high ranking and also with no actual power me, kept looking for excuses to touch me in a "punch you in the shoulder" sort of expression of affection. It was clear to me it was an expression of sexual interest. He was a married man. I left the company not long after this began. Because I did not work directly with him and only knew him socially as someone I talked with in the cafeteria, I saw no reason to report it. Had it continued or escalated or had circumstances changed such that I did need to actually work with him, I was clear this was something I might eventually have to raise as a concern. Women almost never initiate touching with men. It is well established this is a sex based "male privilege." Men tend to take it for granted that no woman is allowed to touch them without permission. I am clear that a man touching me without permission -- a married man, doing nothing to in any way benefit me and intentionally avoiding being helpful so as to not be seen as being sweet on me -- was violating my boundaries. Another man -- well, it is a long story. I knew him socially through chit chat in the cafeteria. Purely by chance, he called me "doll" and "babe" the week before I learned he was slated to become my new boss. At the time, he did not know my name and I did not know he was married. The first incident occurred away from work and I was clear he called me "doll" in part because he did not know my name. It wasn't really offensive or bad behavior, but I discussed the matter with my current boss and got myself quietly moved to another team. I then walked on egg shells around him for 24 months until he was finally fired. One rumor was that he had been fired for sexual harassment. Another was that he had been fired for an illicit affair with a lower ranking employee. I made sure to side step trouble with him. I did so successfully, so there was no smoking gun. His actions were nothing to report to HR but I was clear I did not want him in charge of me. After he was fired, a former team mate who did stay on the team -- a very attractive woman -- confided in me that he piled work on her, made inappropriate remarks and gave her so-so reviews, probably as punishment for not be interested in his attentions. She had asked me earlier why I got moved and I had not divulged the real reason. I felt bad when I learned what he had been doing to her, none of which was blatant enough for her to go to HR. Like me, she was relieved when he was fired. Those are the most obvious things I can think of off the top of my head and I have a deadline to meet today, so that shall have to do for now.
- dumbdee 11y ago
  you sound delusional as fuck. seek help
  - Mz 11y ago
    This is incredibly ironic. I mean, it's so extremely ironic, it's actually funny. Given that it is a blatant violation of the guidelines ("no personal attacks"), I am hoping it will soon be flagged to death. But I did want to point out the irony -- of someone attacking a woman in a male dominated forum in order to prove that she is perfectly safe and merely imagining danger at every turn -- just in case someone missed it. (Edit: Also, the account was created apparently just to attack me as it is one minute older than the comment. Presumably, it was created by a long standing member who wants to hide behind anonymity. Yeah, I am totally safe at all times and merely delusional.) 2nd edit: I will add that it has now been upvoted twice instead of flagged to death. Two more people participating in creating a hostile atmosphere for women on HN while making damn sure they themselves are perfectly safe. For the decent men wondering honestly why women find work so stressful, this is the kind of thing they face. This is typical of the threatening crap women face and cannot prove. If you go screaming to HR about every little instance, you are the problem and "a histrionic female." If you don't, men can act with impunity. It is very often a no win situatuon. (Edit 3: thank you to whoever downvoted it.)
  - dang 11y ago
    We've banned this account. As you know perfectly well, comments like this are completely inadmissible on HN, and making throwaway accounts to do it is an abuse of the site. Those of you who upvoted this should be ashamed of yourselves.
- aperrien 11y ago
  Thank you for an informative and insightful post. I have a niece who's getting a degree in the technology field, and I constantly worry about her having to face this kind of crap. Do you have any suggestions that I can give here to watch out for, before she enters the world of work? Edit: Spelling

Mz 11y ago

One man asked me for a date. He was a very nice man and was doing nothing wrong under company policy. He was a high level IT professional. He worked in a different department. He had no authority over me. There were plenty of people at the company who were married to each other. There was absolutely nothing "wrong" with him asking me for a date. But he was also the only individual I met in over 5 years at the company who knew what GIS was before I explained it. I have a certificate in GIS. I wanted to get into the IT department. It was clear to me that a senior programmer asking me for a date was not bad behavior per se on his part, but it nonetheless was not only not going to open doors for me, it was going to help close them. His interest in dating me was going to make it harder, not easier, to try to get an IT job. I never did get an IT job. I ultimately left the company. (Edit: IT jobs paid about 2-4 times what I was making. Had I gotten an IT job, I likely would have stayed at the company.) Another man, also high ranking and also with no actual power me, kept looking for excuses to touch me in a "punch you in the shoulder" sort of expression of affection. It was clear to me it was an expression of sexual interest. He was a married man. I left the company not long after this began. Because I did not work directly with him and only knew him socially as someone I talked with in the cafeteria, I saw no reason to report it. Had it continued or escalated or had circumstances changed such that I did need to actually work with him, I was clear this was something I might eventually have to raise as a concern. Women almost never initiate touching with men. It is well established this is a sex based "male privilege." Men tend to take it for granted that no woman is allowed to touch them without permission. I am clear that a man touching me without permission -- a married man, doing nothing to in any way benefit me and intentionally avoiding being helpful so as to not be seen as being sweet on me -- was violating my boundaries. Another man -- well, it is a long story. I knew him socially through chit chat in the cafeteria. Purely by chance, he called me "doll" and "babe" the week before I learned he was slated to become my new boss. At the time, he did not know my name and I did not know he was married. The first incident occurred away from work and I was clear he called me "doll" in part because he did not know my name. It wasn't really offensive or bad behavior, but I discussed the matter with my current boss and got myself quietly moved to another team. I then walked on egg shells around him for 24 months until he was finally fired. One rumor was that he had been fired for sexual harassment. Another was that he had been fired for an illicit affair with a lower ranking employee. I made sure to side step trouble with him. I did so successfully, so there was no smoking gun. His actions were nothing to report to HR but I was clear I did not want him in charge of me. After he was fired, a former team mate who did stay on the team -- a very attractive woman -- confided in me that he piled work on her, made inappropriate remarks and gave her so-so reviews, probably as punishment for not be interested in his attentions. She had asked me earlier why I got moved and I had not divulged the real reason. I felt bad when I learned what he had been doing to her, none of which was blatant enough for her to go to HR. Like me, she was relieved when he was fired. Those are the most obvious things I can think of off the top of my head and I have a deadline to meet today, so that shall have to do for now.

dumbdee 11y ago
you sound delusional as fuck. seek help
- Mz 11y ago
  This is incredibly ironic. I mean, it's so extremely ironic, it's actually funny. Given that it is a blatant violation of the guidelines ("no personal attacks"), I am hoping it will soon be flagged to death. But I did want to point out the irony -- of someone attacking a woman in a male dominated forum in order to prove that she is perfectly safe and merely imagining danger at every turn -- just in case someone missed it. (Edit: Also, the account was created apparently just to attack me as it is one minute older than the comment. Presumably, it was created by a long standing member who wants to hide behind anonymity. Yeah, I am totally safe at all times and merely delusional.) 2nd edit: I will add that it has now been upvoted twice instead of flagged to death. Two more people participating in creating a hostile atmosphere for women on HN while making damn sure they themselves are perfectly safe. For the decent men wondering honestly why women find work so stressful, this is the kind of thing they face. This is typical of the threatening crap women face and cannot prove. If you go screaming to HR about every little instance, you are the problem and "a histrionic female." If you don't, men can act with impunity. It is very often a no win situatuon. (Edit 3: thank you to whoever downvoted it.)
- dang 11y ago
  We've banned this account. As you know perfectly well, comments like this are completely inadmissible on HN, and making throwaway accounts to do it is an abuse of the site. Those of you who upvoted this should be ashamed of yourselves.
aperrien 11y ago
Thank you for an informative and insightful post. I have a niece who's getting a degree in the technology field, and I constantly worry about her having to face this kind of crap. Do you have any suggestions that I can give here to watch out for, before she enters the world of work? Edit: Spelling