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> The real problem is are people growing up in a society where they are being subconsciously funnelled towards a particular choice (to the point where they don'

> The real problem is are people growing up in a society where they are being subconsciously funnelled towards a particular choice (to the point where they don't see other options as valid choices due to subconscious biases). Is this a problem? Is the funneling people into an androgynous role any better than funneling them into traditional gender roles? If anything the current system seems more "natural" in that it's emergent behavior, whereas moving to a genderless society will require top down engineering. Our society is free enough that regardless of the direction the masses take, people can and will step out of the role most commonly held by other people of their gender. I think we all agree that it's a good thing to have that option. With that in mind I don't think there's anything "bad" about genders existing in society. People's free will is strong enough to live the life they want regardless of cultural nudging.

derefr 11y ago
I think the suggestion would be that everyone should be able to default to an agendered role and then later make an explicit choice to "put on" a particular gender. This happens in some tribal cultures: children treated as neuter until they reach a certain age, then choosing to go through an explicit ritual to "make them a man" or "make them a woman." (These cultures aren't particularly modern otherwise; you can't choose to undertake the ritual to become a man if you are biologically a woman, and people would think you were crazy to not want to undergo the ritual. The point is more that it's possible for a culture to start doing the "treat people as agendered by default" thing with no top-down pressure.)
- exstudent2 11y ago
  That's a great example. I think it doesn't quite fit what the parent was talking about though, since as you say there are still strongly defined male/female roles (that tribe members are very much expected to follow). It's just that there's a 3rd "pre-gender" that's assigned to infants. I suppose the real test would be to find a culture that's genderless for people who have reached sexual maturity.
- tomp 11y ago
  > I think the suggestion would be that everyone should be able to default to an agendered role and then later make an explicit choice to "put on" a particular gender. Why would that be preferable to a society where people are assigned a default gender but can easily switch it later on (i.e. the present society)? Also, while your suggestion might work for certain languages, it would be very difficult in others (e.g. in Slovenian) that use mainly gendered pronouns.

derefr 11y ago

I think the suggestion would be that everyone should be able to default to an agendered role and then later make an explicit choice to "put on" a particular gender. This happens in some tribal cultures: children treated as neuter until they reach a certain age, then choosing to go through an explicit ritual to "make them a man" or "make them a woman." (These cultures aren't particularly modern otherwise; you can't choose to undertake the ritual to become a man if you are biologically a woman, and people would think you were crazy to not want to undergo the ritual. The point is more that it's possible for a culture to start doing the "treat people as agendered by default" thing with no top-down pressure.)

exstudent2 11y ago
That's a great example. I think it doesn't quite fit what the parent was talking about though, since as you say there are still strongly defined male/female roles (that tribe members are very much expected to follow). It's just that there's a 3rd "pre-gender" that's assigned to infants. I suppose the real test would be to find a culture that's genderless for people who have reached sexual maturity.
tomp 11y ago
> I think the suggestion would be that everyone should be able to default to an agendered role and then later make an explicit choice to "put on" a particular gender. Why would that be preferable to a society where people are assigned a default gender but can easily switch it later on (i.e. the present society)? Also, while your suggestion might work for certain languages, it would be very difficult in others (e.g. in Slovenian) that use mainly gendered pronouns.