7 ms·

The prisoners fighting wildfires in California

92 points by darrhiggs 11y ago

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
rw2 11y ago
There is no better way to reform a man than to give him a purpose. Firefighting and other volunteer services are definitely a good way to go.
- ashark 11y ago
  Reminds me of Sikes fighting the fire in Oliver Twist: http://www.online-literature.com/dickens/olivertwist/49/ http://www.online-literature.com/dickens/olivertwist/49/ (search on page "And here he remained" for the start) (spoiler alert?)
- sova 11y ago
  You are so right, wish more people saw the potential for reform more clearly!
Shivetya 11y ago
One of the hardest part with integrating former prisoners back into regular life is not only the lack of jobs but the restrictions on jobs they can take. Far too many states are regulated to the point the even trades many consider simple exclude felons. Even fire fighting in many states is not possible with convictions. So besides giving them an opportunity to serve while incarcerated we need to make sure that incarceration does not keep them from rejoining society upon release simply because government rules tell them no.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- humanrebar 11y ago
  > Even fire fighting in many states is not possible with convictions. There seems to be a reasonable case for thorough background checks for firefighters. You might be able to persuade me that "any felony conviction" is too broad and only certain kinds of felonies should be excluded.
  - TeMPOraL 11y ago
    You could always find a reasonable case to screen felons, but the first step to reintegrating people into the society is trusting them. It does involve risk.
    - meatysnapper 11y ago
      If you want to make a survivable wage after prison, you pretty much have to become a drug dealer. There are very few jobs open to someone who has been to jail.
      - thescriptkiddie 11y ago
        Perhaps we should not only give prisoners the opportunity to work in prison, but pay them a real wage and offer them continued employment when they get out. It would be far easier to reintegrate if you already have a job you're familiar with and several months' rent in the bank.
        josh_fyi 11y ago
        In Israel, prison jobs pay minimum wage. So, businesses do not suffer from competition with slave labor as in the US, and prisoners learn the value of labor.
        Fjolsvith 11y ago
        The federal prison system runs prisoners through a 6 month halfway-house that helps them find a job and a place to live. In fact, if you don't have these, they will hold you past your release date until you secure them.
- samstave 11y ago
  This is treating a symptom though... The US is a full blown police-state-for-profit. The changes we need to do are far more fundamental than what you mention -- even though everything you say is 100% valid. The US is a broken, defective, state. (regardless of how stable/profitable/functional it may be)
  - happyscrappy 11y ago
    And which state is not broken and defective?
    - samstave 11y ago
      >(regardless of how stable/profitable/functional it may be) None, thus this line in my comment...
      - deleted 11y ago
        [deleted]
      - deleted 11y ago
        [deleted]
- Maultasche 11y ago
  This is in fact a problem with this program. The participating inmates are released back into society with firefighting training, experience, and a desire to continue doing the job. Unfortunately, they are unable to obtain jobs as firefighters because of their previous felony convictions. So they go back to whatever they were doing previously because having any sort of decent career is extremely difficult.
  - SandersAK 11y ago
    Uh, what? The forest service had a ton of ex-cons who came through the prison program. Two of my bosses were ex-cons.
ck2 11y ago
We still have slave labor in the USA, just throw people in prison and strongly suggest to them their lives will suck less if they work for 30 cents per hour. If they want to go outside, they can get $1 an hour but they risk death.
- jobu 11y ago
  Yes it is slave labor, but it is legal to an extent. From the article: David Ball, an assistant professor in criminal justice at the Santa Clara University School of Law, says inmate firefighters are part of a long history of prison labour in the US, pointing out that when Congress passed the 13th Amendment in 1865, which abolished slavery and involuntary servitude, it made a specific exclusion for penal servitude by including the phrase "except as a punishment for crime".
  - justizin 11y ago
    > Yes it is slave labor, but it is legal to an extent. As outright slavery - the treatment of human beings as property - once was. An argument is often made that if a prisoner is contributing work that is essential to the operation of the prison, that is easier to accept than an economy which relies on prison labor. There are wildfires in California every single year. That means that every single year, some prisoners - likely nonviolent - will be asked to risk their lives for $1 a day. $1 a day. I bet some of those folks only crime was selling weed.
    - damon_c 11y ago
      FYI: The article says the rate of pay is $2/day + $1 per hour. -not saying I am in support of the situation (or that I'm not) ...
  - Lawtonfogle 11y ago
    Most people don't realize slavery is still legal in the US. Highly controlled and with the state effectively holding a monopoly, but still legal.
  - Fjolsvith 11y ago
serge2k 11y ago
I have to wonder, based on the restrictions on who they accept, how many of these people would have been better off just getting a job like this instead of going to prison?

92 points by darrhiggs 11y ago

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

rw2 11y ago

There is no better way to reform a man than to give him a purpose. Firefighting and other volunteer services are definitely a good way to go.

ashark 11y ago
Reminds me of Sikes fighting the fire in Oliver Twist: http://www.online-literature.com/dickens/olivertwist/49/ http://www.online-literature.com/dickens/olivertwist/49/ (search on page "And here he remained" for the start) (spoiler alert?)
sova 11y ago
You are so right, wish more people saw the potential for reform more clearly!

Shivetya 11y ago

One of the hardest part with integrating former prisoners back into regular life is not only the lack of jobs but the restrictions on jobs they can take. Far too many states are regulated to the point the even trades many consider simple exclude felons. Even fire fighting in many states is not possible with convictions. So besides giving them an opportunity to serve while incarcerated we need to make sure that incarceration does not keep them from rejoining society upon release simply because government rules tell them no.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
humanrebar 11y ago
> Even fire fighting in many states is not possible with convictions. There seems to be a reasonable case for thorough background checks for firefighters. You might be able to persuade me that "any felony conviction" is too broad and only certain kinds of felonies should be excluded.
- TeMPOraL 11y ago
  You could always find a reasonable case to screen felons, but the first step to reintegrating people into the society is trusting them. It does involve risk.
  - meatysnapper 11y ago
    If you want to make a survivable wage after prison, you pretty much have to become a drug dealer. There are very few jobs open to someone who has been to jail.
    - thescriptkiddie 11y ago
      Perhaps we should not only give prisoners the opportunity to work in prison, but pay them a real wage and offer them continued employment when they get out. It would be far easier to reintegrate if you already have a job you're familiar with and several months' rent in the bank.
      - josh_fyi 11y ago
        In Israel, prison jobs pay minimum wage. So, businesses do not suffer from competition with slave labor as in the US, and prisoners learn the value of labor.
      - Fjolsvith 11y ago
        The federal prison system runs prisoners through a 6 month halfway-house that helps them find a job and a place to live. In fact, if you don't have these, they will hold you past your release date until you secure them.
samstave 11y ago
This is treating a symptom though... The US is a full blown police-state-for-profit. The changes we need to do are far more fundamental than what you mention -- even though everything you say is 100% valid. The US is a broken, defective, state. (regardless of how stable/profitable/functional it may be)
- happyscrappy 11y ago
  And which state is not broken and defective?
  - samstave 11y ago
    >(regardless of how stable/profitable/functional it may be) None, thus this line in my comment...
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
Maultasche 11y ago
This is in fact a problem with this program. The participating inmates are released back into society with firefighting training, experience, and a desire to continue doing the job. Unfortunately, they are unable to obtain jobs as firefighters because of their previous felony convictions. So they go back to whatever they were doing previously because having any sort of decent career is extremely difficult.
- SandersAK 11y ago
  Uh, what? The forest service had a ton of ex-cons who came through the prison program. Two of my bosses were ex-cons.

ck2 11y ago

We still have slave labor in the USA, just throw people in prison and strongly suggest to them their lives will suck less if they work for 30 cents per hour. If they want to go outside, they can get $1 an hour but they risk death.

jobu 11y ago
Yes it is slave labor, but it is legal to an extent. From the article: David Ball, an assistant professor in criminal justice at the Santa Clara University School of Law, says inmate firefighters are part of a long history of prison labour in the US, pointing out that when Congress passed the 13th Amendment in 1865, which abolished slavery and involuntary servitude, it made a specific exclusion for penal servitude by including the phrase "except as a punishment for crime".
- justizin 11y ago
  > Yes it is slave labor, but it is legal to an extent. As outright slavery - the treatment of human beings as property - once was. An argument is often made that if a prisoner is contributing work that is essential to the operation of the prison, that is easier to accept than an economy which relies on prison labor. There are wildfires in California every single year. That means that every single year, some prisoners - likely nonviolent - will be asked to risk their lives for $1 a day. $1 a day. I bet some of those folks only crime was selling weed.
  - damon_c 11y ago
    FYI: The article says the rate of pay is $2/day + $1 per hour. -not saying I am in support of the situation (or that I'm not) ...
- Lawtonfogle 11y ago
  Most people don't realize slavery is still legal in the US. Highly controlled and with the state effectively holding a monopoly, but still legal.
- Fjolsvith 11y ago

serge2k 11y ago

I have to wonder, based on the restrictions on who they accept, how many of these people would have been better off just getting a job like this instead of going to prison?