6 ms·

How would you go about enforcing that. and enforcing that is still covering up the issue that we really do need to move to IPv6

tptacek 11y ago
Why would that be hard to enforce?
- tedunangst 11y ago
  Modifying a contract usually requires the consent of both parties. If IANA/ARIN tried to claw those IPs back from Apple, and Apple sued to stop them, who do you think would win? They could enforce renting (vs owning) going forward with all new assignments, but that will probably just encourage even more hoarding of existing space.
  - zokier 11y ago
    My understanding is that at least ARIN holds the position that IP allocations are not property that the recipients own.
    - tedunangst 11y ago
      Since Apple's allocation predates the existence of ARIN, is ARIN's position relevant? More to the point, the IPs were assigned to Apple by some agreement more or less akin to a perpetual lease. Under what conditions can that lease be terminated? (Actually some of the earliest allocation were apparently because "Postel says so". But probably still close enough to a handshake deal to be valid.)
      - stock_toaster 11y ago
        > Actually some of the earliest allocation were > apparently because "Postel says so" Postel's other, lesser known, law?
  - toomuchtodo 11y ago
    > If IANA/ARIN tried to claw those IPs back from Apple, and Apple sued to stop them, who do you think would win? IANA and ARIN, historically. You don't ever own your IPs, no more than you own your phone number.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
    - icedchai 11y ago
      That's doesn't appear true for legacy blocks. They are, effectively, owned. ARIN can't "claw back" legacy IPs which were assigned before ARIN ever existed. I own legacy IPs. And I pay nothing, because I did not sign the ARIN registration agreement. If they could force me to pay by threatening to revoke my IPs, they would have done it already.
      - toomuchtodo 11y ago
        Nothing stops someone else from announcing those IP blocks. You would be hard pressed to prove ownership in court.
        tedunangst 11y ago
        Yes, that's the solution. Whoever announces a block the loudest gets to use it. You may also want to look into concepts such as water rights. Nothing stops you from draining all the water out of the Colorado river upstream. Except the things that do...
        toomuchtodo 11y ago
        I don't have a dog in this fight, as I don't manage network edges, AS, etc anymore. I'm simply stating that if you fight against ARIN, you'll lose. You're free to try, I've got better things to do. http://www.finnegan.com/resources/articles/articlesdetail.aspx?news=6ee9d632-0f9d-4003-bebb-e72b5d876a03 http://www.finnegan.com/resources/articles/articlesdetail.as...

tptacek 11y ago

Why would that be hard to enforce?

tedunangst 11y ago
Modifying a contract usually requires the consent of both parties. If IANA/ARIN tried to claw those IPs back from Apple, and Apple sued to stop them, who do you think would win? They could enforce renting (vs owning) going forward with all new assignments, but that will probably just encourage even more hoarding of existing space.
- zokier 11y ago
  My understanding is that at least ARIN holds the position that IP allocations are not property that the recipients own.
  - tedunangst 11y ago
    Since Apple's allocation predates the existence of ARIN, is ARIN's position relevant? More to the point, the IPs were assigned to Apple by some agreement more or less akin to a perpetual lease. Under what conditions can that lease be terminated? (Actually some of the earliest allocation were apparently because "Postel says so". But probably still close enough to a handshake deal to be valid.)
    - stock_toaster 11y ago
      > Actually some of the earliest allocation were > apparently because "Postel says so" Postel's other, lesser known, law?
- toomuchtodo 11y ago
  > If IANA/ARIN tried to claw those IPs back from Apple, and Apple sued to stop them, who do you think would win? IANA and ARIN, historically. You don't ever own your IPs, no more than you own your phone number.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - icedchai 11y ago
    That's doesn't appear true for legacy blocks. They are, effectively, owned. ARIN can't "claw back" legacy IPs which were assigned before ARIN ever existed. I own legacy IPs. And I pay nothing, because I did not sign the ARIN registration agreement. If they could force me to pay by threatening to revoke my IPs, they would have done it already.
    - toomuchtodo 11y ago
      Nothing stops someone else from announcing those IP blocks. You would be hard pressed to prove ownership in court.
      - tedunangst 11y ago
        Yes, that's the solution. Whoever announces a block the loudest gets to use it. You may also want to look into concepts such as water rights. Nothing stops you from draining all the water out of the Colorado river upstream. Except the things that do...
        toomuchtodo 11y ago
        I don't have a dog in this fight, as I don't manage network edges, AS, etc anymore. I'm simply stating that if you fight against ARIN, you'll lose. You're free to try, I've got better things to do. http://www.finnegan.com/resources/articles/articlesdetail.aspx?news=6ee9d632-0f9d-4003-bebb-e72b5d876a03 http://www.finnegan.com/resources/articles/articlesdetail.as...