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Will the EPA and other automotive regulators test other brands for similar problems? Perhaps this practice is widespread. Testing them seems obvious, but I know

Will the EPA and other automotive regulators test other brands for similar problems? Perhaps this practice is widespread. Testing them seems obvious, but I know little about how regulators work. EDIT: VW isn't the first. From the other story on HN's front page right now [1] [Caterpillar Inc and Cummins Engine Co] agreed to pay $83.4 million in civil penalties after federal officials found evidence that they were selling heavy duty diesel engines equipped with “defeat devices” that allowed the engines to meet EPA emission standards during testing but disabled the emission control system during normal highway driving. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10264894 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10264894 EDIT2: On queue, from the NY Times: "Volkswagen Test Rigging Follows a Long Auto Industry Pattern" http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/24/business/international/volkswagen-test-rigging-follows-a-long-auto-industry-pattern.html http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/24/business/international/vol...

Shivetya 11y ago
The EPA has already stated that all diesel passenger cars will be retested. I think all cars should go through the same complete testing process and by more than one organizations. The EPA didn't find this issue, a university testing team did
- e40 11y ago
  Does anyone know how the test was detected? I'm thinking they noticed either the revving of the engine without the wheels turning or just one set of wheels were turning. Hopefully the EPA will test in a real situation, by attaching the test equipment to the car and actually driving it. That should foil the cheaters.
  - tzs 11y ago
    From the EPA's description: "The 'switch' senses whether the vehicle is being tested or not based on various inputs including the position of the steering wheel, vehicle speed, the duration of the engine's operation, and barometric pressure. These inputs precisely track the parameters of the federal test procedure used for emission testing for EPA certification purposes." Somewhere I saw a description of the EPA test procedure. It is not just a simple small set of test points. It is a long sequence of operations, calling for specific speeds and durations and rates of change simulating a variety of operating conditions ranging from a wide open freeway to a New York City traffic jam. I believe I read that the order of the various test segments might change from test to test, but each segment's parameters were very strict.
    - tlb 11y ago
      But keep in mind it has to detect the test pretty early. Because non-test-mode emissions are 40x, it has to detect it well before 1/40th of the test is over or it will dominate the average. You can see the test schedule at http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=457ac7ef4b94883cc2c6bdca43e80640&mc=true&node=ap40.19.86_11931_686_11999.i&rgn=div9 http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=457ac7ef4b94883cc2c.... It starts with 21 seconds of warm-up at zero speed, which is probably unusual for real drivers.
      - marincounty 11y ago
        The engineer/engineers who pulled this off were pretty slick. I don't condone the cheat, but I am still trying to figure out how they turned on specific emmissions devises, or fooled with pulse cycles, etc. I have a weird feeling it wasn't fool proof, and they're a bunch of VW owners who failed smog? They brought the auto back, or to a different shop and the code somehow turned on the right components, leaned out injectors, etc? The problem is the customer had to pay for this slick trick. These smog tests are not cheap in my neck of the woods. Every two years, I end up paying close to $100. They always try to nail me with the "leaky" fuel cap. I just keep a new one in the back storage area, and bring it out at the right time. I'm an ex-mechanic so my vechicle always pass the emmission test, but boy, I have had problems with the visual test. While I'm here, some of us drive older cars, for a long time. Smog shops in California are required to have one copy of an Emissions Publication. Most use use Motor Publications. That manual is filled with errors. It's is the cheapest emmission manual on the market. If you happen to fail a visual smog test, go to a smog shop that has access to Mitchell Emission Smog manuals(OnDemand5). I have yet to find an error in Mitchell manuals. (The only reason so many smog shops only buy the Motor publications is because they are cheap. Any Smog technician will tell you they have found multiple errors in Motor Emission Publications. Vechicle owners don't have a clue to this problem, and are just sent home with a failed Smog test, or end up spending a day taking to CARB--just praying they will get an exemption. All of this is due to errors in Motor Emission Publications.)

Shivetya 11y ago

The EPA has already stated that all diesel passenger cars will be retested. I think all cars should go through the same complete testing process and by more than one organizations. The EPA didn't find this issue, a university testing team did

e40 11y ago
Does anyone know how the test was detected? I'm thinking they noticed either the revving of the engine without the wheels turning or just one set of wheels were turning. Hopefully the EPA will test in a real situation, by attaching the test equipment to the car and actually driving it. That should foil the cheaters.
- tzs 11y ago
  From the EPA's description: "The 'switch' senses whether the vehicle is being tested or not based on various inputs including the position of the steering wheel, vehicle speed, the duration of the engine's operation, and barometric pressure. These inputs precisely track the parameters of the federal test procedure used for emission testing for EPA certification purposes." Somewhere I saw a description of the EPA test procedure. It is not just a simple small set of test points. It is a long sequence of operations, calling for specific speeds and durations and rates of change simulating a variety of operating conditions ranging from a wide open freeway to a New York City traffic jam. I believe I read that the order of the various test segments might change from test to test, but each segment's parameters were very strict.
  - tlb 11y ago
    But keep in mind it has to detect the test pretty early. Because non-test-mode emissions are 40x, it has to detect it well before 1/40th of the test is over or it will dominate the average. You can see the test schedule at http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=457ac7ef4b94883cc2c6bdca43e80640&mc=true&node=ap40.19.86_11931_686_11999.i&rgn=div9 http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=457ac7ef4b94883cc2c.... It starts with 21 seconds of warm-up at zero speed, which is probably unusual for real drivers.
    - marincounty 11y ago
      The engineer/engineers who pulled this off were pretty slick. I don't condone the cheat, but I am still trying to figure out how they turned on specific emmissions devises, or fooled with pulse cycles, etc. I have a weird feeling it wasn't fool proof, and they're a bunch of VW owners who failed smog? They brought the auto back, or to a different shop and the code somehow turned on the right components, leaned out injectors, etc? The problem is the customer had to pay for this slick trick. These smog tests are not cheap in my neck of the woods. Every two years, I end up paying close to $100. They always try to nail me with the "leaky" fuel cap. I just keep a new one in the back storage area, and bring it out at the right time. I'm an ex-mechanic so my vechicle always pass the emmission test, but boy, I have had problems with the visual test. While I'm here, some of us drive older cars, for a long time. Smog shops in California are required to have one copy of an Emissions Publication. Most use use Motor Publications. That manual is filled with errors. It's is the cheapest emmission manual on the market. If you happen to fail a visual smog test, go to a smog shop that has access to Mitchell Emission Smog manuals(OnDemand5). I have yet to find an error in Mitchell manuals. (The only reason so many smog shops only buy the Motor publications is because they are cheap. Any Smog technician will tell you they have found multiple errors in Motor Emission Publications. Vechicle owners don't have a clue to this problem, and are just sent home with a failed Smog test, or end up spending a day taking to CARB--just praying they will get an exemption. All of this is due to errors in Motor Emission Publications.)