7 ms·

The marketing of "we are sorry and we are listening to our users" which turned out to be a load of crap when Windows 10 came out turned me off to any promises m

by buffoon 11y ago

The marketing of "we are sorry and we are listening to our users" which turned out to be a load of crap when Windows 10 came out turned me off to any promises made in the future.

agumonkey 11y ago
They do listen though.
- TheOtherHobbes 11y ago
  By reading all your secrets.
  - drdaeman 11y ago
    Was there any claim that MS products, unknowingly to users, send users' private data, that was proven true by being reproducible and/or having independent verifications from well-trusted third parties? What's known (and can be independently verified and reproduced) are search queries, crash reports, hardware specs and new executables. Mostly, if appropriate settings are not disabled. And performance metrics, but their sensitivity is mild at best. Don't get me wrong - it's not any small deal and it is already quite sensitive, but this is nowhere near "all secrets". There are a lot of outcries about serious spying - on the order of webcam shots, audio streams or even hard drive scans on typing in movie names, yet I haven't seen any details and highly suspect those are rumors and speculations at best. Is there anything like those rumors - a private data leaks that can't be justified (i.e. not usual "search improvements" or "malware protection" stuff), but that can be verified and reproduced? I bet, many would love to hear about some, check the facts and went to police and/or court with those. We do have state-of-art decompilers, protocol analyzers and IDS software. Yet I'm somewhat bothered by the gap between the rumored privacy implications and analysis published.
    - buffoon 11y ago
      There is plenty of discussion out there and no conclusive results. However there is a vague set of privacy notes in an EULA, a dodgy looking agreement between the EU and US over data export/sharing, data shooting out even if everything is turned off and most importantly.... ... not a word from Microsoft on the matter. I'd expect them to conclusively defend themselves from such allegations, but no, the marketing mill is still going on non stop. To be honest it's like a toddler talking incessantly to avoid talking about the puddle of piss he/she is trying to hide.
      - Someone1234 11y ago
        How are Microsoft meant to respond when there is no concrete accusations to begin with? It would be like trying to nail jello to the wall, they will say one thing and tons of people will claim that isn't what they're accusing Microsoft, and Microsoft is skirting the topic. This whole thing started because three things happened at once: - Cortona got released (with a bunch of privacy options, since they want to support the same functionality as Google Now, so email access, location, etc). - Microsoft moved tons of privacy settings from previous versions of Windows into one unified location. - Microsoft is trying to do continuous development so wanted analytics related to how people are using their software (so they know what to focus on). The ironic thing, to me, is that Microsoft unlike Google/Apple/et al decided to put all of the privacy settings in a single location (the new Privacy category in settings), and it was THAT which really got them into trouble. If they had left the privacy settings scattered all over the place, I doubt we'd be discussing this right now. Ultimately it is up the accusers to show what Microsoft is doing wrong. It isn't up to Microsoft to respond to vague hand waving and FUD. So far I am yet to see one shred of evidence that they do anything beyond what the privacy settings screens claim.
        AlexandrB 11y ago
        > - Microsoft is trying to do continuous development so wanted analytics related to how people are using their software (so they know what to focus on). If this is true, why are the same analytics and telemetry slowly being back ported to Windows 7/8 where no continuous development is happening?
- buffoon 11y ago
  And completely ignore you, you know like Apple circa 1994-1997...
- JimmaDaRustla 11y ago
  Windows 7 was the turning point I remember, when Gates came back to make up for Vista and they took every piece of feedback possible.
  - agumonkey 11y ago
    I meant to mock the win10 privacy issues. Not MS customer care.
  - Someone1234 11y ago
    Windows 7 was just a re-badged Vista with a sprinkling of new features. None of the criticisms that people try and lay at Vista's feat are untrue about Windows 7. Vista largely got criticised for: - Higher memory usage (than XP). - Driver issues (in particular graphics and sound). Because Microsoft made changes to the Windows Driver Model, and big name manufacturers (Nvidia, Creative, et al) weren't ready at release, and produced either buggy drivers, or no drivers at all. The reason why Windows 7 was better received is: - It wasn't called "Vista." It was/is fashionable to bash Vista. They could have literally re-released Vista without one change and it still would have been treated better than Vista was (which is essentially the 7 strategy). - Hardware moved forward. Vista and 7 don't run well on 1 GB of RAM. By the time 7 shipped most new PCs had 2 GB or more. - Drivers were fixed/improved. When 7 shipped it ran Vista compatible drivers which were time tested by that stage. Ultimately I just roll my eyes at people who continue to be critical of Vista. At least 8/8.1 I understand their perspective (Start Screen, etc), but trying to bash Vista while holding up 7 as this incredible release is just strange given how similar the two are.
    - redxdev 11y ago
      Whatever your thoughts are on Vista, the changes pretty much had to happen. The old driver model was just that: old. Something had to give, and unfortunately a lot of companies weren't ready. Windows 7 cleaned up much of the UI, fixed some performance issues, and was released at a time that drivers and memory usage weren't as big of a deal. Does that make Win7 that much better than Vista? Not really, but it does make Win7 a better release simply due to timing. I'd say that Apple could have had a similar issue with going from OS9 to OSX, though they at least had a long period of some degree of backwards compatibility. They, however, handled the transition much better since they controlled all of the hardware and drivers.
ManFromUranus 11y ago
>which turned out to be a load of crap when Windows 10 came out How did it turn out to be a load of crap? They changed the UI to cater to user preferences. What was missing for you?
- buffoon 11y ago
  The privacy changes, the license changes, the authentication changes, the cloud lock in, the general unreliability of it, the fucked up updates, the poor GPO support, the enterprise updates and LTS picture, the ad-supported default apps, the fudged upgrade process. I could go on all day about what a gigantic turd it is, but hey shiny shiny! On the subject of the UI, it does precisely nothing that anyone wants or asked for. People wanted a stable, reliable desktop operating system but the just marched forward with pushing "modern apps" which are all incoherent, buggy, slow, suffer major usability problems with both touch and mouse and are brow beating this into people at every available opportunity as the next best thing. So basically everything.
  - WorldMaker 11y ago
    1) The license changes were directly from decades of user feedback: people don't buy upgrades to Windows, they buy machines with Windows on it. Microsoft listened and now Windows is licensed and updated perpetually to a given hardware configuration. 2) Windows still supports Local Accounts as well as it ever has, and with feedback it's now much more obvious how to create one if you don't want "cloud lock-in". With the latest build out to Insiders even Cortana allows you to use a Local Account and opt in sign in to a Microsoft account only for Cortana features. Certainly seems to me that Microsoft is listening and trying to balance the feedback of the paranoids like you and the people that appreciate the convenience of cloud features such as myself... 3) Giant Enterprise "Threshold 2" release is expected to drop November-ish with greater support for GPO, BYOD, LTS, and all the Enterprise appeasing buzzword acronyms that "admins" love and users live with and/or hate. Microsoft appears to be collecting a lot of feedback to work on to build this Enterprise push, including a lot of feedback from the few companies to actually try and use Windows 8 (as opposed to all the ones steadfastly "Windows XP or Death"/"LTS for Life"), which had a lot stronger Enterprise capabilities than people seem to have given it credit for... 4) The UI is doing a lot of things that people want and ask for: better handling different DPI across multiple screens, better handling touch, better handling DPI in general, increasing better access to good typography and design principles. Apple does it and gets applauded, Microsoft tries to do it and people call them tyrants and "brow beating". Here again, Microsoft is clearly doing everything they can do based on the feedback they are getting. So much so that they've even backpedaled on many of the things that once made "Modern Apps" truly "Modern" in terms of fresh, smarter approaches to common problems (I was a fan of the Charms bar and what it tried to accomplish, may it rest in peace; also, hamburger menus, sigh). Apple never had to deal with as much "who moved my cheese" hatred in the transition between Carbon and Cocoa as Microsoft seems to be working with here.

by buffoon 11y ago

The marketing of "we are sorry and we are listening to our users" which turned out to be a load of crap when Windows 10 came out turned me off to any promises made in the future.

agumonkey 11y ago

They do listen though.

TheOtherHobbes 11y ago
By reading all your secrets.
- drdaeman 11y ago
  Was there any claim that MS products, unknowingly to users, send users' private data, that was proven true by being reproducible and/or having independent verifications from well-trusted third parties? What's known (and can be independently verified and reproduced) are search queries, crash reports, hardware specs and new executables. Mostly, if appropriate settings are not disabled. And performance metrics, but their sensitivity is mild at best. Don't get me wrong - it's not any small deal and it is already quite sensitive, but this is nowhere near "all secrets". There are a lot of outcries about serious spying - on the order of webcam shots, audio streams or even hard drive scans on typing in movie names, yet I haven't seen any details and highly suspect those are rumors and speculations at best. Is there anything like those rumors - a private data leaks that can't be justified (i.e. not usual "search improvements" or "malware protection" stuff), but that can be verified and reproduced? I bet, many would love to hear about some, check the facts and went to police and/or court with those. We do have state-of-art decompilers, protocol analyzers and IDS software. Yet I'm somewhat bothered by the gap between the rumored privacy implications and analysis published.
  - buffoon 11y ago
    There is plenty of discussion out there and no conclusive results. However there is a vague set of privacy notes in an EULA, a dodgy looking agreement between the EU and US over data export/sharing, data shooting out even if everything is turned off and most importantly.... ... not a word from Microsoft on the matter. I'd expect them to conclusively defend themselves from such allegations, but no, the marketing mill is still going on non stop. To be honest it's like a toddler talking incessantly to avoid talking about the puddle of piss he/she is trying to hide.
    - Someone1234 11y ago
      How are Microsoft meant to respond when there is no concrete accusations to begin with? It would be like trying to nail jello to the wall, they will say one thing and tons of people will claim that isn't what they're accusing Microsoft, and Microsoft is skirting the topic. This whole thing started because three things happened at once: - Cortona got released (with a bunch of privacy options, since they want to support the same functionality as Google Now, so email access, location, etc). - Microsoft moved tons of privacy settings from previous versions of Windows into one unified location. - Microsoft is trying to do continuous development so wanted analytics related to how people are using their software (so they know what to focus on). The ironic thing, to me, is that Microsoft unlike Google/Apple/et al decided to put all of the privacy settings in a single location (the new Privacy category in settings), and it was THAT which really got them into trouble. If they had left the privacy settings scattered all over the place, I doubt we'd be discussing this right now. Ultimately it is up the accusers to show what Microsoft is doing wrong. It isn't up to Microsoft to respond to vague hand waving and FUD. So far I am yet to see one shred of evidence that they do anything beyond what the privacy settings screens claim.
      - AlexandrB 11y ago
        > - Microsoft is trying to do continuous development so wanted analytics related to how people are using their software (so they know what to focus on). If this is true, why are the same analytics and telemetry slowly being back ported to Windows 7/8 where no continuous development is happening?
buffoon 11y ago
And completely ignore you, you know like Apple circa 1994-1997...
JimmaDaRustla 11y ago
Windows 7 was the turning point I remember, when Gates came back to make up for Vista and they took every piece of feedback possible.
- agumonkey 11y ago
  I meant to mock the win10 privacy issues. Not MS customer care.
- Someone1234 11y ago
  Windows 7 was just a re-badged Vista with a sprinkling of new features. None of the criticisms that people try and lay at Vista's feat are untrue about Windows 7. Vista largely got criticised for: - Higher memory usage (than XP). - Driver issues (in particular graphics and sound). Because Microsoft made changes to the Windows Driver Model, and big name manufacturers (Nvidia, Creative, et al) weren't ready at release, and produced either buggy drivers, or no drivers at all. The reason why Windows 7 was better received is: - It wasn't called "Vista." It was/is fashionable to bash Vista. They could have literally re-released Vista without one change and it still would have been treated better than Vista was (which is essentially the 7 strategy). - Hardware moved forward. Vista and 7 don't run well on 1 GB of RAM. By the time 7 shipped most new PCs had 2 GB or more. - Drivers were fixed/improved. When 7 shipped it ran Vista compatible drivers which were time tested by that stage. Ultimately I just roll my eyes at people who continue to be critical of Vista. At least 8/8.1 I understand their perspective (Start Screen, etc), but trying to bash Vista while holding up 7 as this incredible release is just strange given how similar the two are.
  - redxdev 11y ago
    Whatever your thoughts are on Vista, the changes pretty much had to happen. The old driver model was just that: old. Something had to give, and unfortunately a lot of companies weren't ready. Windows 7 cleaned up much of the UI, fixed some performance issues, and was released at a time that drivers and memory usage weren't as big of a deal. Does that make Win7 that much better than Vista? Not really, but it does make Win7 a better release simply due to timing. I'd say that Apple could have had a similar issue with going from OS9 to OSX, though they at least had a long period of some degree of backwards compatibility. They, however, handled the transition much better since they controlled all of the hardware and drivers.

ManFromUranus 11y ago

>which turned out to be a load of crap when Windows 10 came out How did it turn out to be a load of crap? They changed the UI to cater to user preferences. What was missing for you?

buffoon 11y ago
The privacy changes, the license changes, the authentication changes, the cloud lock in, the general unreliability of it, the fucked up updates, the poor GPO support, the enterprise updates and LTS picture, the ad-supported default apps, the fudged upgrade process. I could go on all day about what a gigantic turd it is, but hey shiny shiny! On the subject of the UI, it does precisely nothing that anyone wants or asked for. People wanted a stable, reliable desktop operating system but the just marched forward with pushing "modern apps" which are all incoherent, buggy, slow, suffer major usability problems with both touch and mouse and are brow beating this into people at every available opportunity as the next best thing. So basically everything.
- WorldMaker 11y ago
  1) The license changes were directly from decades of user feedback: people don't buy upgrades to Windows, they buy machines with Windows on it. Microsoft listened and now Windows is licensed and updated perpetually to a given hardware configuration. 2) Windows still supports Local Accounts as well as it ever has, and with feedback it's now much more obvious how to create one if you don't want "cloud lock-in". With the latest build out to Insiders even Cortana allows you to use a Local Account and opt in sign in to a Microsoft account only for Cortana features. Certainly seems to me that Microsoft is listening and trying to balance the feedback of the paranoids like you and the people that appreciate the convenience of cloud features such as myself... 3) Giant Enterprise "Threshold 2" release is expected to drop November-ish with greater support for GPO, BYOD, LTS, and all the Enterprise appeasing buzzword acronyms that "admins" love and users live with and/or hate. Microsoft appears to be collecting a lot of feedback to work on to build this Enterprise push, including a lot of feedback from the few companies to actually try and use Windows 8 (as opposed to all the ones steadfastly "Windows XP or Death"/"LTS for Life"), which had a lot stronger Enterprise capabilities than people seem to have given it credit for... 4) The UI is doing a lot of things that people want and ask for: better handling different DPI across multiple screens, better handling touch, better handling DPI in general, increasing better access to good typography and design principles. Apple does it and gets applauded, Microsoft tries to do it and people call them tyrants and "brow beating". Here again, Microsoft is clearly doing everything they can do based on the feedback they are getting. So much so that they've even backpedaled on many of the things that once made "Modern Apps" truly "Modern" in terms of fresh, smarter approaches to common problems (I was a fan of the Charms bar and what it tried to accomplish, may it rest in peace; also, hamburger menus, sigh). Apple never had to deal with as much "who moved my cheese" hatred in the transition between Carbon and Cocoa as Microsoft seems to be working with here.