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There was no "misappropriation" here. Employment does not qualify as "improper means". [1] Just imagine for a moment the slippery slope this would create if co

There was no "misappropriation" here. Employment does not qualify as "improper means". [1] Just imagine for a moment the slippery slope this would create if companies were able to criminalize knowledge on the basis of prior employment. Literally any work process you performed could be considered protected IP. You could work one job and never be employable again. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_Trade_Secrets_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_Trade_Secrets_Act

sandworm101 11y ago
Yes. That is reality. Talk to anyone in aerospace. Techniques developed for employer A cannot be taken to employer B. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, just that there are laws on the books to prevent it. Imagine the slippery slope if former employees of Coke were allowed to take the recipe over to Pepsi. We wouldn't have any long-lived product lines. (That actually happened. Pepsi called the FBI) For below: 18 U.S. Code § 1832 - Theft of trade secrets (the really really short version) "Whoever ... knowingly ... steals, or without authorization appropriates ... or by fraud, artifice, or deception obtains such information ... shall ... be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both."
- mentat 11y ago
  What laws?
- grizzles 11y ago
  sandworm101: That's a really interesting comment. It sounds very anti free market to me, but I guess I'm not surprised. I guess the only recourse for a founder led company in that situation would be to leave the US. Not necessarily a great result. OT: Regarding the Coke/Pepsi thing, personally I think food manufacturers (I use the term loosely) should be forced to disclose what's in their products. Though I would strongly agree that this comment has nothing to do with the rest of our previous discussion.
  - sandworm101 11y ago
    Leaving the US would do little beyond increasing the cost of litigation and making said founder look more like a fugitive. Tradesecret law and IP law generally is pretty universal. And you can still get sued where the alleged theft/taking/wrong took place. A default decision (ie you don't show up) by a US court will be enforced in Canada, Europe or most anywhere else. As for free markets, while IP law does create monopolies, the theory is that many protected innovations would never be brought to market without some promise they won't be replicated. For below: Independent creation is not theft and so the laws do not apply. Copyright and patent bar independent creation, but not tradesecret. No doubt countless production secrets have been independently developed by competitors. When one trys to patent something, these come out of the woodwork as "prior art". But independence is a very hard burden to prove. Any communication from one firm to another, especially the movie a knowledgeable employee from one firm to the other, destroys any notion of independence.
    - grizzles 11y ago
      sandworm101: do you think those laws apply when someone reinvents something that was in their head, or only when documents were retained/copied/passed as in the Chung/Boeing case?
    - grizzles 11y ago
      It sounds like you agree with me then. Techniques developed for employer A CAN be taken to employer B. [as long as they are independently created ] If there is some nuance here that I'm missing, I'd like to know what it is. A finer understanding of this point is probably really important for anyone who works in science.
      - sandworm101 11y ago
        No they cannot be 'taken' from A to B. They must arise independently within in B. The fact B's technique looks very much like A's must be complete coincidence.
    - aianus 11y ago
- agumonkey 11y ago
  For 'eternal' products like Coke I guess it's impossible, but for other still moving markets I thought a simple N-years NDA clause was enough to let ex-employee not screw you until you have enough head start.
- taneq 11y ago
  In the case of your Coke vs. Pepsi scenario, would the recipe for Coke not be protected both as a trade secret, and under copyright? On the other hand, I can't believe it'd be against the law for some employees from Coke to quit and start a company that manufactures soda (assuming they didn't actually use Coke's recipe).
keypusher 11y ago
But that's exactly how it works. I have worked at a company that did a "clean room" reimplementation of a competitor's product. You cannot have anyone who was formerly an employee of the other company anywhere near a project like that. It's not that you will be prosecuted as a criminal, it's so that your company has some defense against being sued. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_room_design https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_room_design
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

sandworm101 11y ago

Yes. That is reality. Talk to anyone in aerospace. Techniques developed for employer A cannot be taken to employer B. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, just that there are laws on the books to prevent it. Imagine the slippery slope if former employees of Coke were allowed to take the recipe over to Pepsi. We wouldn't have any long-lived product lines. (That actually happened. Pepsi called the FBI) For below: 18 U.S. Code § 1832 - Theft of trade secrets (the really really short version) "Whoever ... knowingly ... steals, or without authorization appropriates ... or by fraud, artifice, or deception obtains such information ... shall ... be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both."

mentat 11y ago
What laws?
grizzles 11y ago
sandworm101: That's a really interesting comment. It sounds very anti free market to me, but I guess I'm not surprised. I guess the only recourse for a founder led company in that situation would be to leave the US. Not necessarily a great result. OT: Regarding the Coke/Pepsi thing, personally I think food manufacturers (I use the term loosely) should be forced to disclose what's in their products. Though I would strongly agree that this comment has nothing to do with the rest of our previous discussion.
- sandworm101 11y ago
  Leaving the US would do little beyond increasing the cost of litigation and making said founder look more like a fugitive. Tradesecret law and IP law generally is pretty universal. And you can still get sued where the alleged theft/taking/wrong took place. A default decision (ie you don't show up) by a US court will be enforced in Canada, Europe or most anywhere else. As for free markets, while IP law does create monopolies, the theory is that many protected innovations would never be brought to market without some promise they won't be replicated. For below: Independent creation is not theft and so the laws do not apply. Copyright and patent bar independent creation, but not tradesecret. No doubt countless production secrets have been independently developed by competitors. When one trys to patent something, these come out of the woodwork as "prior art". But independence is a very hard burden to prove. Any communication from one firm to another, especially the movie a knowledgeable employee from one firm to the other, destroys any notion of independence.
  - grizzles 11y ago
    sandworm101: do you think those laws apply when someone reinvents something that was in their head, or only when documents were retained/copied/passed as in the Chung/Boeing case?
  - grizzles 11y ago
    It sounds like you agree with me then. Techniques developed for employer A CAN be taken to employer B. [as long as they are independently created ] If there is some nuance here that I'm missing, I'd like to know what it is. A finer understanding of this point is probably really important for anyone who works in science.
    - sandworm101 11y ago
      No they cannot be 'taken' from A to B. They must arise independently within in B. The fact B's technique looks very much like A's must be complete coincidence.
  - aianus 11y ago
agumonkey 11y ago
For 'eternal' products like Coke I guess it's impossible, but for other still moving markets I thought a simple N-years NDA clause was enough to let ex-employee not screw you until you have enough head start.
taneq 11y ago
In the case of your Coke vs. Pepsi scenario, would the recipe for Coke not be protected both as a trade secret, and under copyright? On the other hand, I can't believe it'd be against the law for some employees from Coke to quit and start a company that manufactures soda (assuming they didn't actually use Coke's recipe).

keypusher 11y ago

But that's exactly how it works. I have worked at a company that did a "clean room" reimplementation of a competitor's product. You cannot have anyone who was formerly an employee of the other company anywhere near a project like that. It's not that you will be prosecuted as a criminal, it's so that your company has some defense against being sued. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_room_design https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_room_design

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]