6 ms·

There are a couple of questions that I haven't seen addressed on this issue: why, if this is a feature of the software, is this expected to cost so much for VW

by kodis 11y ago

There are a couple of questions that I haven't seen addressed on this issue: why, if this is a feature of the software, is this expected to cost so much for VW to fix?; and how do they expect to get people to bring their cars in for the fix when the fix can be expected to make their cars get worse fuel economy and a decrease in power?

15155 11y ago
> and how do they expect to get people to bring their cars in for the fix when the fix can be expected to make their cars get worse fuel economy and a decrease in power Slip it into their vehicle next time they're in for some other routine issue.
- alexpersian 11y ago
  That would cause an even greater scandal than what they are in right now.
- hnal943 11y ago
  Who takes their car to a dealer to have it serviced? Certainly not everyone.
  - DanBC 11y ago
    In the UK all cars need a yearly MOT. https://www.gov.uk/getting-an-mot/the-mot-test https://www.gov.uk/getting-an-mot/the-mot-test I guess most of Europe has something similar.
    - jacquesm 11y ago
      But MOT does not require going to a dealer, just to a garage. For sure dealers do this too but it's not a requirement MOT be done by the dealer of the brand.
- AjithAntony 11y ago
  Only let them claim the hypothetical $1000 payout if they come in to flash the ECU.
Handmadeby 11y ago
My assumption is that this is a software issue because it's the engine management system switching to a mode like "sport" or "economy" by changing things like timing, fuel /air mix etc
amatix 11y ago
As a consumer, surely you have a fairly legitimate comeback with "the fuel economy & power is now rubbish, I'd have never bought the car in the first place if it was like that"? Pretty hard for VW to prove otherwise, and I don't know whether the outcome would look like a refund, replacement, or something else... (the first two would cost billions)
- CWuestefeld 11y ago
  Several years back, Hyundai got in trouble for having worse fuel efficiency than their EPA numbers claimed. They had to pay off all owners of that car (I don't recall whether that was due to class action lawsuit, or an agreement with the gov't). So it seems to me that if VW has to detune their engine performance, they'll similarly have to compensate owners of the affected cars.
  - QuotedForTruth 11y ago
    That was easy to do since you could determine the difference in gas cost between advertised and actual performance. How do you value power though?
    - toomuchtodo 11y ago
      Determine the average sales price of vehicles with the power your car now has after correcting its ECU fuel maps, subtract that from the average sales price of vehicles with the power you advertised. That number you arrive at is the compensation you owe each person who purchased your vehicle.
    - Evolved 11y ago
      toomuchtodo 4 minutes ago Determine the average sales price of vehicles with the power your car now has after correcting its ECU fuel maps, subtract that from the average sales price of vehicles with the power you advertised. That number you arrive at is the compensation you owe each person who purchased your vehicle. I don't think that would quite work because the new sales would also factor in distrust and changes in consumer perception and taste which further reduces the amount of sales VW might have. You'd essentially have to do this in a vacuum where the updated vehicles' sales were subtracted from the non-updated vehicles and the numbers crunched on the premise that nobody ever found out about this and it was just fixed and swept under the rug. Either way, I like your idea and I hope these owners get adequately compensated for this.
travem 11y ago
> how do they expect to get people to bring their cars in for the fix when the fix can be expected to make their cars get worse fuel economy and a decrease in power? One option would be to make it an automatic fail of the emissions tests for any car where this has not been fixed. This obviously won't work universally but for locations where emissions testing is required periodically this could help move the process along.
bigtech 11y ago
As I understand it, these cars were designed with a simplified system for maintaining low emissions that used fewer parts. Evidently, software can allow the system to pass the emission test but at a significant loss of power.
- BashiBazouk 11y ago
  I've seen a whole bunch of theories about what the practical effect of turning on test mode all the time will do. From the engine is powerful enough that the net effect will just be lower mileage up to power, mileage and reliability will get worse and everything in between. I'm surprised the chip has not already been hacked, put into permanent test mode and the performance reported. Maybe soon.
QuotedForTruth 11y ago
Part of the cost may be the anticipation of lawsuits since the car isnt as advertised anymore. How much less would the car have been worth to people? $1000? Thats 4% of a golf TDI's MSRP. Seems reasonable. 11m cars times $1000 and you're at $11b!
thaumaturgy 11y ago
> Why, if this is a feature of the software, is this expected to cost so much for VW to fix? Aside from the costs of a recall and class-action lawsuits, VW will also be looking down the barrel of some pretty ugly EPA fines. I've seen numbers as high as $32,000 per affected sold vehicle. Of course the actual fines will be a lot less, but still probably pretty substantial. > how do they expect to get people to bring their cars in for the fix when the fix can be expected to make their cars get worse fuel economy and a decrease in power? It will depend on the state. In California, owners won't have a choice; if there is an emissions-related recall you have to provide proof that you've had your vehicle repaired as part of the inspection / licensing process. Which then means that vehicles from other states won't sell well to Californians, and other states may well have some kind of similar requirements (though I think California's is the most strict, as usual).
alkonaut 11y ago
> how do they expect to get people to bring their cars in for the fix As long as the car is under warranty (the first 3 years, for VW in UK for example) the owner is required to service it following the manufacturers recommendation. This pretty much guarantees that at least for 3 years, new cars will be brought to service regularly. If I was a manufacturer of modern cars, I'd include the requirement to always install the latest software at every service, in the terms of the warranty.

by kodis 11y ago

15155 11y ago

> and how do they expect to get people to bring their cars in for the fix when the fix can be expected to make their cars get worse fuel economy and a decrease in power Slip it into their vehicle next time they're in for some other routine issue.

alexpersian 11y ago
That would cause an even greater scandal than what they are in right now.
hnal943 11y ago
Who takes their car to a dealer to have it serviced? Certainly not everyone.
- DanBC 11y ago
  In the UK all cars need a yearly MOT. https://www.gov.uk/getting-an-mot/the-mot-test https://www.gov.uk/getting-an-mot/the-mot-test I guess most of Europe has something similar.
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    But MOT does not require going to a dealer, just to a garage. For sure dealers do this too but it's not a requirement MOT be done by the dealer of the brand.
AjithAntony 11y ago
Only let them claim the hypothetical $1000 payout if they come in to flash the ECU.

Handmadeby 11y ago

My assumption is that this is a software issue because it's the engine management system switching to a mode like "sport" or "economy" by changing things like timing, fuel /air mix etc

amatix 11y ago

As a consumer, surely you have a fairly legitimate comeback with "the fuel economy & power is now rubbish, I'd have never bought the car in the first place if it was like that"? Pretty hard for VW to prove otherwise, and I don't know whether the outcome would look like a refund, replacement, or something else... (the first two would cost billions)

CWuestefeld 11y ago
Several years back, Hyundai got in trouble for having worse fuel efficiency than their EPA numbers claimed. They had to pay off all owners of that car (I don't recall whether that was due to class action lawsuit, or an agreement with the gov't). So it seems to me that if VW has to detune their engine performance, they'll similarly have to compensate owners of the affected cars.
- QuotedForTruth 11y ago
  That was easy to do since you could determine the difference in gas cost between advertised and actual performance. How do you value power though?
  - toomuchtodo 11y ago
    Determine the average sales price of vehicles with the power your car now has after correcting its ECU fuel maps, subtract that from the average sales price of vehicles with the power you advertised. That number you arrive at is the compensation you owe each person who purchased your vehicle.
  - Evolved 11y ago
    toomuchtodo 4 minutes ago Determine the average sales price of vehicles with the power your car now has after correcting its ECU fuel maps, subtract that from the average sales price of vehicles with the power you advertised. That number you arrive at is the compensation you owe each person who purchased your vehicle. I don't think that would quite work because the new sales would also factor in distrust and changes in consumer perception and taste which further reduces the amount of sales VW might have. You'd essentially have to do this in a vacuum where the updated vehicles' sales were subtracted from the non-updated vehicles and the numbers crunched on the premise that nobody ever found out about this and it was just fixed and swept under the rug. Either way, I like your idea and I hope these owners get adequately compensated for this.

travem 11y ago

> how do they expect to get people to bring their cars in for the fix when the fix can be expected to make their cars get worse fuel economy and a decrease in power? One option would be to make it an automatic fail of the emissions tests for any car where this has not been fixed. This obviously won't work universally but for locations where emissions testing is required periodically this could help move the process along.

bigtech 11y ago

As I understand it, these cars were designed with a simplified system for maintaining low emissions that used fewer parts. Evidently, software can allow the system to pass the emission test but at a significant loss of power.

BashiBazouk 11y ago
I've seen a whole bunch of theories about what the practical effect of turning on test mode all the time will do. From the engine is powerful enough that the net effect will just be lower mileage up to power, mileage and reliability will get worse and everything in between. I'm surprised the chip has not already been hacked, put into permanent test mode and the performance reported. Maybe soon.

QuotedForTruth 11y ago

Part of the cost may be the anticipation of lawsuits since the car isnt as advertised anymore. How much less would the car have been worth to people? $1000? Thats 4% of a golf TDI's MSRP. Seems reasonable. 11m cars times $1000 and you're at $11b!

thaumaturgy 11y ago

> Why, if this is a feature of the software, is this expected to cost so much for VW to fix? Aside from the costs of a recall and class-action lawsuits, VW will also be looking down the barrel of some pretty ugly EPA fines. I've seen numbers as high as $32,000 per affected sold vehicle. Of course the actual fines will be a lot less, but still probably pretty substantial. > how do they expect to get people to bring their cars in for the fix when the fix can be expected to make their cars get worse fuel economy and a decrease in power? It will depend on the state. In California, owners won't have a choice; if there is an emissions-related recall you have to provide proof that you've had your vehicle repaired as part of the inspection / licensing process. Which then means that vehicles from other states won't sell well to Californians, and other states may well have some kind of similar requirements (though I think California's is the most strict, as usual).

alkonaut 11y ago

> how do they expect to get people to bring their cars in for the fix As long as the car is under warranty (the first 3 years, for VW in UK for example) the owner is required to service it following the manufacturers recommendation. This pretty much guarantees that at least for 3 years, new cars will be brought to service regularly. If I was a manufacturer of modern cars, I'd include the requirement to always install the latest software at every service, in the terms of the warranty.