5 ms·

We never had roads before the 19th century when personal income tax was introduced.

1ris 11y ago
It's a horrible comparison. It all boils down to the question wheatre you belive in the existence of a socity or if you don't, and if you want to be ruled by the strongest/richest or by the majority.
afshin 11y ago
Regardless of the type of tax, roads have been built by governments using tax revenue since history began. [1] Is your grievance with personal income tax in particular or taxes in general? Because for taxes to work at all, there needs to be some way for governments to have some visibility on the flow of cash in the economy, right? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road#History
- fleitz 11y ago
  Thieves seem to manage without having a detailed list of assets, I'm sure government can too.
  - yarrel 11y ago
    Thieves don't scale.
    - fleitz 11y ago
      Given the prison industrial complex I disagree.
- mindcrime 11y ago
  roads have been built by governments using tax revenue since history began Some roads have been built by government... not all where, and not all are even now. I'll posit that a significant number of Americans drive on at least one private road every single day. Chances are, if you live in any kind of suburban housing subdivision, the road right in front of your house actually wasn't created, and isn't maintained, by the State. There are, of course, other privately built roads: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_highways_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_highways_in_the_United... Basically, the old (trite) saw that "I want roads, therefore we need government" is pretty much bullshit. Never mind the fact that one person's desire for a road hardly justifies their putting a gun in the face of everyone else around and demanding that they pay for said road. Again.. we're hackers, we can do better. And I'm not saying I have all the answers, sitting here today. I'm saying that if we put our minds to it, we can come up with a way to achieve positive ends without resorting to violence. Why anybody on this thread would argue against that is hard to imagine? Are you people saying you like violence?
  - afshin 11y ago
    It may be that the disagreement you're encountering is based on your acceptance of the premise that taxes are collected at gunpoint. It's extending a principle to an extreme logical conclusion and appealing to a formulaic interpretation of the world. It is divorced from the real world and makes the perfect the enemy of the good.
    - msandford 11y ago
      > It may be that the disagreement you're encountering is based on your acceptance of the premise that taxes are collected at gunpoint. Isn't that true, though? I mean, the IRS doesn't send around a tax-person who carries a pistol or rifle or whatever, but the whole system is founded on the idea that "if you don't do what 'society' has agreed is the law, bad things (tm) can and probably will happen to you". Paying taxes isn't optional in the same way that getting a driver's license is optional. So it's literally true that taxes are collected through the subtle but ultimately real threat of violence. Maybe you won't be executed, maybe you won't be beaten, but you will be made to do things against your will like go to jail. Sure it's the extreme logical conclusion, but it's also the accurate one if you try not to pay.
    - mindcrime 11y ago
      It's not even slightly divorced from the real world. If you don't "pay your taxes" they will eventually send men with guns to confiscate your property and/or arrest you. And if you try to protect yourself, said "men with guns" will fucking shoot you dead. That is reality. And it's absolutely horrifying.
      - dagss 11y ago
        But it is nothing compared to the reality without taxes, where ANYONE (who can afford more men with guns than you can) can come and shoot you dead right away and take your property, not even giving you a chance to pay taxes (or vote) first.
        11y ago
- oberstein 11y ago
  Yes, my comment was sarcastic. Roads have been and still are built by governments and private groups and even individuals for a long time. I have no issues with taxation in general, but I think personal income tax is a mistake and related to other mistakes whose trend started around the French Revolution such as the movement from private to public government and consequently a never-ending cycle of the public trying to vote parts of itself maximal shares of the treasury without destroying the whole thing. Any entity worthy of the name government has a very simple way of visualizing the flow of cash in the economy: door to door searches. If the organized manpower for this does not exist, the government will have a hard time collecting taxes no matter how many technological shortcuts to the physical searching (like, say, property records on stone tablets) they use.
mindcrime 11y ago
You mean "we never had government roads before..." Obviously people managed to move themselves from place to place prior to the 19th century... roads are far, far older than that.
- Jtsummers 11y ago
  And many, particularly paved roads [1], were constructed by governments in order to allow the transportation of their armies and trade goods vital to their economies. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_roads https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_roads
- Sanddancer 11y ago
  In pretty much the entirety of civilization, important roads were indeed maintained by the government. Hence why the constitution had clauses dealing with road construction, hence the Appian Way, etc. Infrastructure projects like roads are one of the universals among societies.
jessaustin 11y ago
We never had roads before the 19th century... How did people get around? Hot-air balloons?

1ris 11y ago

It's a horrible comparison. It all boils down to the question wheatre you belive in the existence of a socity or if you don't, and if you want to be ruled by the strongest/richest or by the majority.

afshin 11y ago

Regardless of the type of tax, roads have been built by governments using tax revenue since history began. [1] Is your grievance with personal income tax in particular or taxes in general? Because for taxes to work at all, there needs to be some way for governments to have some visibility on the flow of cash in the economy, right? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road#History

fleitz 11y ago
Thieves seem to manage without having a detailed list of assets, I'm sure government can too.
- yarrel 11y ago
  Thieves don't scale.
  - fleitz 11y ago
    Given the prison industrial complex I disagree.
mindcrime 11y ago
roads have been built by governments using tax revenue since history began Some roads have been built by government... not all where, and not all are even now. I'll posit that a significant number of Americans drive on at least one private road every single day. Chances are, if you live in any kind of suburban housing subdivision, the road right in front of your house actually wasn't created, and isn't maintained, by the State. There are, of course, other privately built roads: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_highways_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_highways_in_the_United... Basically, the old (trite) saw that "I want roads, therefore we need government" is pretty much bullshit. Never mind the fact that one person's desire for a road hardly justifies their putting a gun in the face of everyone else around and demanding that they pay for said road. Again.. we're hackers, we can do better. And I'm not saying I have all the answers, sitting here today. I'm saying that if we put our minds to it, we can come up with a way to achieve positive ends without resorting to violence. Why anybody on this thread would argue against that is hard to imagine? Are you people saying you like violence?
- afshin 11y ago
  It may be that the disagreement you're encountering is based on your acceptance of the premise that taxes are collected at gunpoint. It's extending a principle to an extreme logical conclusion and appealing to a formulaic interpretation of the world. It is divorced from the real world and makes the perfect the enemy of the good.
  - msandford 11y ago
    > It may be that the disagreement you're encountering is based on your acceptance of the premise that taxes are collected at gunpoint. Isn't that true, though? I mean, the IRS doesn't send around a tax-person who carries a pistol or rifle or whatever, but the whole system is founded on the idea that "if you don't do what 'society' has agreed is the law, bad things (tm) can and probably will happen to you". Paying taxes isn't optional in the same way that getting a driver's license is optional. So it's literally true that taxes are collected through the subtle but ultimately real threat of violence. Maybe you won't be executed, maybe you won't be beaten, but you will be made to do things against your will like go to jail. Sure it's the extreme logical conclusion, but it's also the accurate one if you try not to pay.
  - mindcrime 11y ago
    It's not even slightly divorced from the real world. If you don't "pay your taxes" they will eventually send men with guns to confiscate your property and/or arrest you. And if you try to protect yourself, said "men with guns" will fucking shoot you dead. That is reality. And it's absolutely horrifying.
    - dagss 11y ago
      But it is nothing compared to the reality without taxes, where ANYONE (who can afford more men with guns than you can) can come and shoot you dead right away and take your property, not even giving you a chance to pay taxes (or vote) first.
      - 11y ago
oberstein 11y ago
Yes, my comment was sarcastic. Roads have been and still are built by governments and private groups and even individuals for a long time. I have no issues with taxation in general, but I think personal income tax is a mistake and related to other mistakes whose trend started around the French Revolution such as the movement from private to public government and consequently a never-ending cycle of the public trying to vote parts of itself maximal shares of the treasury without destroying the whole thing. Any entity worthy of the name government has a very simple way of visualizing the flow of cash in the economy: door to door searches. If the organized manpower for this does not exist, the government will have a hard time collecting taxes no matter how many technological shortcuts to the physical searching (like, say, property records on stone tablets) they use.

mindcrime 11y ago

You mean "we never had government roads before..." Obviously people managed to move themselves from place to place prior to the 19th century... roads are far, far older than that.

Jtsummers 11y ago
And many, particularly paved roads [1], were constructed by governments in order to allow the transportation of their armies and trade goods vital to their economies. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_roads https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_roads
Sanddancer 11y ago
In pretty much the entirety of civilization, important roads were indeed maintained by the government. Hence why the constitution had clauses dealing with road construction, hence the Appian Way, etc. Infrastructure projects like roads are one of the universals among societies.

jessaustin 11y ago

We never had roads before the 19th century... How did people get around? Hot-air balloons?