5 ms·

+1 to your general sentiment. I have fond memories of listening to my grandmother tell stories about how her father installed the first (private, consumer) ele

+1 to your general sentiment. I have fond memories of listening to my grandmother tell stories about how her father installed the first (private, consumer) electric generator in the state of Alabama and how at night, you could see their farm glow for miles around. And I often contemplate how my 2yo daughter will think it's totally normal to have all the world's information at your fingertips 24/7. The pace of change is accelerating, and while we don't know what the future holds, this is a damned exciting time to be alive. However, I bemoan the scarcity of good bagels, and it saddens me if Lender's is your concept of a "Bagel". That's like having McDonald's or Dominos be your concept of a Hamburger or a Pizza. They're the same type of food, in general, but you really won't understand what all the fuss is about until you have a more authentic, less processed version.

hga 11y ago
Thing is, though, Lender's bagels, and McDonald's hamburgers, are tasty. Certainly there are better, I've had much better bagels when I've lived in big cities, but in my relatively small home city that I've retired to starting my day with a Lender's bagel, as I do almost every day, is not a bad thing.
- Tenhundfeld 11y ago
  I acknowledge that, not trying to come across as some food snob. I've enjoyed many a McDonald's cheeseburger. They've spent literally millions of dollars to make it taste good. I should hope it tastes good to most people. But if that's the only burger you've ever tasted, you should really try one made by somebody who grinds/chops their own meat. It's different, better I think, but it's also going to cost 10 times as much. And yeah, I've enjoyed a few Lender's bagels, toasted with some butter or cream cheese, maybe even gasp some jelly. Untoasted, they're far too spongey, IMO, and I greatly prefer a denser, chewier texture with a stronger flavor. But that doesn't mean Lender's tastes bad.
russnewcomer 11y ago
I personally don't think the pace of change is accelerating, I think the uniformity of acceptance of change is. In regards to your second paragraph, I don't know if 'more authentic' really means what you think it does. I've had the idea for a while that traditions around food are a lot more fungible than is popularly thought. Something like the documentary The Search for General Tso [ http://www.thesearchforgeneraltso.com/ http://www.thesearchforgeneraltso.com/ ] or Rachel Laudan's work [ http://www.utne.com/environment/fast-food-culinary-ethos.aspx http://www.utne.com/environment/fast-food-culinary-ethos.asp... or https://www.jacobinmag.com/2015/05/slow-food-artisanal-natural-preservatives/ https://www.jacobinmag.com/2015/05/slow-food-artisanal-natur... ] better illustrates it than I could in a comment.
- Tenhundfeld 11y ago
  Well, I guess we just disagree. I think if you look back over the last 500 years, modern society is changing faster – technologically and culturally. Society is undergoing massive shifts more frequently, with the move from agrarian societies to the industrial revolution to the information age to the coming, IMO, biotech revolution. Or to use the classic example, I think if you plucked an adult from 1500 and transported them to 1600, they'd be able to understand and navigate society much better than someone plucked from 1915 transported to 2015. Related to your point though is the idea that change is not just happening faster, IMO, it's spreading more uniformly due to globalization, e.g., cellphones have spread to all but the most impoverished, over 90% of the global population at the last estimate I saw. And yes, I'm aware of Rachel Laudan, though I haven't seen The Search for General Tso. "More authentic" is clearly vague, context-dependent, and ever changing, akin to "proper grammar". You can intellectualize it forever, which can be fun, but eventually you should try actually tasting the food. You will taste the difference in a bagel made from traditional ingredients, i.e., no fats. You can rightly argue about exactly what is meant by "traditional," but at some point, there's a way that's been practiced for hundreds of years and there's a newer, more automated way. That's not to say I'm right or that the factory-produced food is always worse. I know many people who think Panera has fantastic bagels. I disagree and think they're far too spongey. But there is a difference.
  - russnewcomer 11y ago
    Maybe technologically, but there have been significant technological advances almost every 100 years that don't look as significant to us because we're way past them. The jump from sailing to steamships doesn't seem that big to us, but in terms of reliability, speed, etc, etc, etc, it was an incredible leap, similar to propellers to jets. I don't know about culturally. If you plucked a European adult from 1500 and dropped them in the same city in 1600, chances are the Protestant Reformation would have done a pretty big shakeup of their cultural and societal expectations. Food is weird. Not arguing that there is a difference between 'modern' bagels and 'traditional' bagels, just arguing that the traditional way is perhaps not as traditional as someone might think, and I would guess that 'hundreds' of years isn't in many cases (perhaps not specifically with bagels, I'm not a bagel expert, when I eat them I buy the bag of mini-bagels from Aldi).
tjr 11y ago
Where would you go for a good bagel?
- Tenhundfeld 11y ago
  It depends where you live. I've had great bagels all over NYC and upper NJ, obviously, but also in Boston, Charlottesville, VA, Sarasota, FL and so on. Bagels made according to the "traditional way" don't have any eggs or fats in them. They're chewier and denser (and more flavorful IMO), but they also get hard/stale very quickly. Thus, I've found the most important aspect of a good bagel shop is very high turnover in the product and baking new batches throughout the day. Typically this means a place that bakes everything from scratch in house and only serves bagels. A bakery that offers bagels as one of its many products will probably add egg or oil to keep the bagels palatable longer, which is fine, but means the texture will be different, more like a roll.

hga 11y ago

Thing is, though, Lender's bagels, and McDonald's hamburgers, are tasty. Certainly there are better, I've had much better bagels when I've lived in big cities, but in my relatively small home city that I've retired to starting my day with a Lender's bagel, as I do almost every day, is not a bad thing.

Tenhundfeld 11y ago
I acknowledge that, not trying to come across as some food snob. I've enjoyed many a McDonald's cheeseburger. They've spent literally millions of dollars to make it taste good. I should hope it tastes good to most people. But if that's the only burger you've ever tasted, you should really try one made by somebody who grinds/chops their own meat. It's different, better I think, but it's also going to cost 10 times as much. And yeah, I've enjoyed a few Lender's bagels, toasted with some butter or cream cheese, maybe even gasp some jelly. Untoasted, they're far too spongey, IMO, and I greatly prefer a denser, chewier texture with a stronger flavor. But that doesn't mean Lender's tastes bad.

russnewcomer 11y ago

I personally don't think the pace of change is accelerating, I think the uniformity of acceptance of change is. In regards to your second paragraph, I don't know if 'more authentic' really means what you think it does. I've had the idea for a while that traditions around food are a lot more fungible than is popularly thought. Something like the documentary The Search for General Tso [ http://www.thesearchforgeneraltso.com/ http://www.thesearchforgeneraltso.com/ ] or Rachel Laudan's work [ http://www.utne.com/environment/fast-food-culinary-ethos.aspx http://www.utne.com/environment/fast-food-culinary-ethos.asp... or https://www.jacobinmag.com/2015/05/slow-food-artisanal-natural-preservatives/ https://www.jacobinmag.com/2015/05/slow-food-artisanal-natur... ] better illustrates it than I could in a comment.

Tenhundfeld 11y ago
Well, I guess we just disagree. I think if you look back over the last 500 years, modern society is changing faster – technologically and culturally. Society is undergoing massive shifts more frequently, with the move from agrarian societies to the industrial revolution to the information age to the coming, IMO, biotech revolution. Or to use the classic example, I think if you plucked an adult from 1500 and transported them to 1600, they'd be able to understand and navigate society much better than someone plucked from 1915 transported to 2015. Related to your point though is the idea that change is not just happening faster, IMO, it's spreading more uniformly due to globalization, e.g., cellphones have spread to all but the most impoverished, over 90% of the global population at the last estimate I saw. And yes, I'm aware of Rachel Laudan, though I haven't seen The Search for General Tso. "More authentic" is clearly vague, context-dependent, and ever changing, akin to "proper grammar". You can intellectualize it forever, which can be fun, but eventually you should try actually tasting the food. You will taste the difference in a bagel made from traditional ingredients, i.e., no fats. You can rightly argue about exactly what is meant by "traditional," but at some point, there's a way that's been practiced for hundreds of years and there's a newer, more automated way. That's not to say I'm right or that the factory-produced food is always worse. I know many people who think Panera has fantastic bagels. I disagree and think they're far too spongey. But there is a difference.
- russnewcomer 11y ago
  Maybe technologically, but there have been significant technological advances almost every 100 years that don't look as significant to us because we're way past them. The jump from sailing to steamships doesn't seem that big to us, but in terms of reliability, speed, etc, etc, etc, it was an incredible leap, similar to propellers to jets. I don't know about culturally. If you plucked a European adult from 1500 and dropped them in the same city in 1600, chances are the Protestant Reformation would have done a pretty big shakeup of their cultural and societal expectations. Food is weird. Not arguing that there is a difference between 'modern' bagels and 'traditional' bagels, just arguing that the traditional way is perhaps not as traditional as someone might think, and I would guess that 'hundreds' of years isn't in many cases (perhaps not specifically with bagels, I'm not a bagel expert, when I eat them I buy the bag of mini-bagels from Aldi).

tjr 11y ago

Where would you go for a good bagel?

Tenhundfeld 11y ago
It depends where you live. I've had great bagels all over NYC and upper NJ, obviously, but also in Boston, Charlottesville, VA, Sarasota, FL and so on. Bagels made according to the "traditional way" don't have any eggs or fats in them. They're chewier and denser (and more flavorful IMO), but they also get hard/stale very quickly. Thus, I've found the most important aspect of a good bagel shop is very high turnover in the product and baking new batches throughout the day. Typically this means a place that bakes everything from scratch in house and only serves bagels. A bakery that offers bagels as one of its many products will probably add egg or oil to keep the bagels palatable longer, which is fine, but means the texture will be different, more like a roll.