4 ms·

There's a schizoid perspective in this article that arises a lot with these kinds of things. Bagels used to be better, and there were tons of people making the

There's a schizoid perspective in this article that arises a lot with these kinds of things. Bagels used to be better, and there were tons of people making them! But there weren't enough bagels, because not enough people were making them! Hand-rolled bagels taste so much better! But Americans like the texture and flavor of the machine-rolled ones better! You used to only be able to get authentic hand-rolled bagels in cities with a large Jewish population, which was exclusive and cool! But now, you can only get authentic hand-rolled bagels in cities with a large Jewish population, which is awful! Bagel hipsters.

thornofmight 11y ago
I can see your blue eye peering through a bagel's hole into the heart of modern times.
smacktoward 11y ago
> You used to only be able to get authentic hand-rolled bagels in cities with a large Jewish population, which was exclusive and cool! But now, you can only get authentic hand-rolled bagels in cities with a large Jewish population, which is awful! It's more complicated than that. First, the article notes that the old-style bagels are hard to find now, even in cities like New York with large Jewish populations where they used to be everywhere. Even though they still had people there who preferred them, they were driven out of those markets by a combination of factors arising from the rise of the machine-made bagel. Since "bagel-maker" isn't a career that an artisan can make a living at anymore, for instance, the knowledge of how those old bagels got made doesn't get passed down from one generation to another like it used to. Eventually that knowledge will be lost, and the machine-made bagel will be the only bagel. So it's not a straight case of everyone's better off; if you're one of the people who lives in those markets and prefers the traditional bagel, you're losing it. It's possible to argue that loss is outweighed by the benefit everyone else in the world gets from having access to any kind of bagel at all, but it's definitely a loss. Second, it's tied up with longstanding anxieties in the American Jewish community (anxieties that will be familiar to any immigrant minority) about assimilation. On one hand, if you are Jewish or love Jewish culture, it's exciting to see something as central to that culture as the bagel exploding outside the Jewish community to the plates of the nation at large; when Jewish food becomes American food, it helps reinforce the idea that the days when Jews were seen as foreign or alien are over. But the flip side of that is that you can look at the bagel that's landing on all those gentile plates and worry that maybe the price of becoming "American" involves having to give up the distinctiveness that makes Jewish culture Jewish. Is that too high a price for what it buys? How much of traditional Jewish culture can you give up before you've given up your Jewish identity altogether? None of those anxieties are unique to Jews -- I imagine Americans of Hispanic extraction must feel the same way every time they see a Taco Bell. It's a question that immigrants to America (and those descended from them) of all kinds have always had to grapple with: how do you embrace your new home without completely losing your connection to the old one? How much assimilation is too much?
- cafard 11y ago
  I am not Jewish, and what I know of that community's anxieties about assimilation I have read in the press. However, though I am a Gentile who grew up in the Midwest eating peanut butter sandwiches made with toasted Wonder Bread, I do know good bread from bad, and a lot of the bagels out there are just not very good. Would I rather have a machine-made bagel than none at all. It depends, I guess, on my experience with the store, and on what else is on the menu. OK, there was a good bakery in town. At this point I have no idea what their ethnicity was.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- kenko 11y ago
  """ First, the article notes that the old-style bagels are hard to find now, even in cities like New York with large Jewish populations where they used to be everywhere. Even though they still had people there who preferred them, they were driven out of those markets by a combination of factors arising from the rise of the machine-made bagel. Since "bagel-maker" isn't a career that an artisan can make a living at anymore, for instance, the knowledge of how those old bagels got made doesn't get passed down from one generation to another like it used to. Eventually that knowledge will be lost, and the machine-made bagel will be the only bagel. So it's not a straight case of everyone's better off; if you're one of the people who lives in those markets and prefers the traditional bagel, you're losing it. It's possible to argue that loss is outweighed by the benefit everyone else in the world gets from having access to any kind of bagel at all, but it's definitely a loss. """ Disruption in a nutshell.
mdlowman 11y ago
You can also move to Seattle, which has classic hand-rolled, boiled, delicious bagels at one local store. I can confirm that they taste _much_ better. And are more expensive.
- spb 11y ago
  Which store?
  - mdlowman 11y ago
    Eltana.
analog31 11y ago
How much of the problem is due to the machine as originally conceived, and how much due to subsequent changes in ingredients and other aspects of the process? I've never tasted a hand-made bagel other than my own attempts to make them at home. But I know, even over the span of my own lifetime, that store-bought bagels have changed a lot. Many brands of bagels, such as a couple of the chains operating in my locale, are basically toroidal wonder bread, huge, soft, and sweet. There's a reasonably decent bagel factory near my house, with a retail counter. So at least the bagels are fresh, and buying a couple dozen is a convenient respite from baking bread every evening for the family.
sandworm101 11y ago
If you are in Vancouver: http://siegelsbagels.com/our-bagels http://siegelsbagels.com/our-bagels When I was in school in the US I asked the first Jewish person I met "Where do I get good Jewish bagel". He knew exactly what I meant: unleavened and boiled. Despite both of us coming from either side of the continent, we both appreciated west coast lox and actual Montreal smoked meet. Just don't ask an American about pizza.

thornofmight 11y ago

I can see your blue eye peering through a bagel's hole into the heart of modern times.

smacktoward 11y ago

> You used to only be able to get authentic hand-rolled bagels in cities with a large Jewish population, which was exclusive and cool! But now, you can only get authentic hand-rolled bagels in cities with a large Jewish population, which is awful! It's more complicated than that. First, the article notes that the old-style bagels are hard to find now, even in cities like New York with large Jewish populations where they used to be everywhere. Even though they still had people there who preferred them, they were driven out of those markets by a combination of factors arising from the rise of the machine-made bagel. Since "bagel-maker" isn't a career that an artisan can make a living at anymore, for instance, the knowledge of how those old bagels got made doesn't get passed down from one generation to another like it used to. Eventually that knowledge will be lost, and the machine-made bagel will be the only bagel. So it's not a straight case of everyone's better off; if you're one of the people who lives in those markets and prefers the traditional bagel, you're losing it. It's possible to argue that loss is outweighed by the benefit everyone else in the world gets from having access to any kind of bagel at all, but it's definitely a loss. Second, it's tied up with longstanding anxieties in the American Jewish community (anxieties that will be familiar to any immigrant minority) about assimilation. On one hand, if you are Jewish or love Jewish culture, it's exciting to see something as central to that culture as the bagel exploding outside the Jewish community to the plates of the nation at large; when Jewish food becomes American food, it helps reinforce the idea that the days when Jews were seen as foreign or alien are over. But the flip side of that is that you can look at the bagel that's landing on all those gentile plates and worry that maybe the price of becoming "American" involves having to give up the distinctiveness that makes Jewish culture Jewish. Is that too high a price for what it buys? How much of traditional Jewish culture can you give up before you've given up your Jewish identity altogether? None of those anxieties are unique to Jews -- I imagine Americans of Hispanic extraction must feel the same way every time they see a Taco Bell. It's a question that immigrants to America (and those descended from them) of all kinds have always had to grapple with: how do you embrace your new home without completely losing your connection to the old one? How much assimilation is too much?

cafard 11y ago
I am not Jewish, and what I know of that community's anxieties about assimilation I have read in the press. However, though I am a Gentile who grew up in the Midwest eating peanut butter sandwiches made with toasted Wonder Bread, I do know good bread from bad, and a lot of the bagels out there are just not very good. Would I rather have a machine-made bagel than none at all. It depends, I guess, on my experience with the store, and on what else is on the menu. OK, there was a good bakery in town. At this point I have no idea what their ethnicity was.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
kenko 11y ago
""" First, the article notes that the old-style bagels are hard to find now, even in cities like New York with large Jewish populations where they used to be everywhere. Even though they still had people there who preferred them, they were driven out of those markets by a combination of factors arising from the rise of the machine-made bagel. Since "bagel-maker" isn't a career that an artisan can make a living at anymore, for instance, the knowledge of how those old bagels got made doesn't get passed down from one generation to another like it used to. Eventually that knowledge will be lost, and the machine-made bagel will be the only bagel. So it's not a straight case of everyone's better off; if you're one of the people who lives in those markets and prefers the traditional bagel, you're losing it. It's possible to argue that loss is outweighed by the benefit everyone else in the world gets from having access to any kind of bagel at all, but it's definitely a loss. """ Disruption in a nutshell.

mdlowman 11y ago

You can also move to Seattle, which has classic hand-rolled, boiled, delicious bagels at one local store. I can confirm that they taste _much_ better. And are more expensive.

spb 11y ago
Which store?
- mdlowman 11y ago
  Eltana.

analog31 11y ago

How much of the problem is due to the machine as originally conceived, and how much due to subsequent changes in ingredients and other aspects of the process? I've never tasted a hand-made bagel other than my own attempts to make them at home. But I know, even over the span of my own lifetime, that store-bought bagels have changed a lot. Many brands of bagels, such as a couple of the chains operating in my locale, are basically toroidal wonder bread, huge, soft, and sweet. There's a reasonably decent bagel factory near my house, with a retail counter. So at least the bagels are fresh, and buying a couple dozen is a convenient respite from baking bread every evening for the family.

sandworm101 11y ago

If you are in Vancouver: http://siegelsbagels.com/our-bagels http://siegelsbagels.com/our-bagels When I was in school in the US I asked the first Jewish person I met "Where do I get good Jewish bagel". He knew exactly what I meant: unleavened and boiled. Despite both of us coming from either side of the continent, we both appreciated west coast lox and actual Montreal smoked meet. Just don't ask an American about pizza.