8 ms·

Daniel Thompson, Whose Bagel Machine Altered the American Diet, Dies at 94

73 points by davidf18 11y ago

wahsd 11y ago
I also find it interesting how there's a seemingly erroneous association of bagels as a Jewish food item even though the earliest depictions of bread with holes in the center appear in Egyptian hieroglyphs as far as I know.
- tjr 11y ago
  Is bread with holes necessarily a bagel? Wikipedia suggests likely Jewish origins in Poland: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagel
- aplusbi 11y ago
  And I suppose that rice isn't Latin food because it originated in Asia?
- DanBC 11y ago
  Did they boil then bake the dough?
russnewcomer 11y ago
As a mere 30-something, it's always amazing to me to read about these things that seemed ubiquitous when I was a child (store-bought bagels, folding ping-pong tables, even things like vacuums, electric stoves, and color TV) really are recent inventions. I had no idea that the Bagel didn't become what I think of the Bagel until this article. I regularly talk to my nearly nineties grandparents, and they regularly mention something that they are amazed by that I just take for granted (air conditioning, power steering, batteries, frozen meals, and more). I hope I don't lose my sense of wonder for the world. Here's to you, Mr. Thompson, a tinkerer from the age when one could revolutionize the world twice from one's garage.
- Tenhundfeld 11y ago
  +1 to your general sentiment. I have fond memories of listening to my grandmother tell stories about how her father installed the first (private, consumer) electric generator in the state of Alabama and how at night, you could see their farm glow for miles around. And I often contemplate how my 2yo daughter will think it's totally normal to have all the world's information at your fingertips 24/7. The pace of change is accelerating, and while we don't know what the future holds, this is a damned exciting time to be alive. However, I bemoan the scarcity of good bagels, and it saddens me if Lender's is your concept of a "Bagel". That's like having McDonald's or Dominos be your concept of a Hamburger or a Pizza. They're the same type of food, in general, but you really won't understand what all the fuss is about until you have a more authentic, less processed version.
  - hga 11y ago
    Thing is, though, Lender's bagels, and McDonald's hamburgers, are tasty. Certainly there are better, I've had much better bagels when I've lived in big cities, but in my relatively small home city that I've retired to starting my day with a Lender's bagel, as I do almost every day, is not a bad thing.
    - Tenhundfeld 11y ago
      I acknowledge that, not trying to come across as some food snob. I've enjoyed many a McDonald's cheeseburger. They've spent literally millions of dollars to make it taste good. I should hope it tastes good to most people. But if that's the only burger you've ever tasted, you should really try one made by somebody who grinds/chops their own meat. It's different, better I think, but it's also going to cost 10 times as much. And yeah, I've enjoyed a few Lender's bagels, toasted with some butter or cream cheese, maybe even gasp some jelly. Untoasted, they're far too spongey, IMO, and I greatly prefer a denser, chewier texture with a stronger flavor. But that doesn't mean Lender's tastes bad.
  - russnewcomer 11y ago
    I personally don't think the pace of change is accelerating, I think the uniformity of acceptance of change is. In regards to your second paragraph, I don't know if 'more authentic' really means what you think it does. I've had the idea for a while that traditions around food are a lot more fungible than is popularly thought. Something like the documentary The Search for General Tso [ http://www.thesearchforgeneraltso.com/ http://www.thesearchforgeneraltso.com/ ] or Rachel Laudan's work [ http://www.utne.com/environment/fast-food-culinary-ethos.aspx http://www.utne.com/environment/fast-food-culinary-ethos.asp... or https://www.jacobinmag.com/2015/05/slow-food-artisanal-natural-preservatives/ https://www.jacobinmag.com/2015/05/slow-food-artisanal-natur... ] better illustrates it than I could in a comment.
keithpeter 11y ago
Anyone know of a traditional bagel bakery in UK? Beigel Bake perhaps (Brick Lane)? I always thought bagels were a bit harder so they lasted longer like German rye loaf. I didn't know about the dough-boiling bit.
- 0xdeadbeefbabe 11y ago
  Where do I get German rye loaf in the western USA?
  - avn2109 11y ago
    This place [0] was one of the best in North America for real bread but they are now long gone. [0] http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Tassajara-Bakery-to-close-its-doors-3089165.php http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Tassajara-Bakery-to-close... Sorry. Maybe they have a spiritual heir that someone here can identify.
  - eltondegeneres 11y ago
    In SF, Cinderella Bakery or Moscow & Tbilisi Bakery.
- njs12345 11y ago
  I think there were bagels in Brick Lane before they were in the US, so in that sense it's a very traditional bagel indeed.. Not sure how long the shops there have been going though (white or orange).
tfinniga 11y ago
There's a schizoid perspective in this article that arises a lot with these kinds of things. Bagels used to be better, and there were tons of people making them! But there weren't enough bagels, because not enough people were making them! Hand-rolled bagels taste so much better! But Americans like the texture and flavor of the machine-rolled ones better! You used to only be able to get authentic hand-rolled bagels in cities with a large Jewish population, which was exclusive and cool! But now, you can only get authentic hand-rolled bagels in cities with a large Jewish population, which is awful! Bagel hipsters.
- thornofmight 11y ago
  I can see your blue eye peering through a bagel's hole into the heart of modern times.
- smacktoward 11y ago
  > You used to only be able to get authentic hand-rolled bagels in cities with a large Jewish population, which was exclusive and cool! But now, you can only get authentic hand-rolled bagels in cities with a large Jewish population, which is awful! It's more complicated than that. First, the article notes that the old-style bagels are hard to find now, even in cities like New York with large Jewish populations where they used to be everywhere. Even though they still had people there who preferred them, they were driven out of those markets by a combination of factors arising from the rise of the machine-made bagel. Since "bagel-maker" isn't a career that an artisan can make a living at anymore, for instance, the knowledge of how those old bagels got made doesn't get passed down from one generation to another like it used to. Eventually that knowledge will be lost, and the machine-made bagel will be the only bagel. So it's not a straight case of everyone's better off; if you're one of the people who lives in those markets and prefers the traditional bagel, you're losing it. It's possible to argue that loss is outweighed by the benefit everyone else in the world gets from having access to any kind of bagel at all, but it's definitely a loss. Second, it's tied up with longstanding anxieties in the American Jewish community (anxieties that will be familiar to any immigrant minority) about assimilation. On one hand, if you are Jewish or love Jewish culture, it's exciting to see something as central to that culture as the bagel exploding outside the Jewish community to the plates of the nation at large; when Jewish food becomes American food, it helps reinforce the idea that the days when Jews were seen as foreign or alien are over. But the flip side of that is that you can look at the bagel that's landing on all those gentile plates and worry that maybe the price of becoming "American" involves having to give up the distinctiveness that makes Jewish culture Jewish. Is that too high a price for what it buys? How much of traditional Jewish culture can you give up before you've given up your Jewish identity altogether? None of those anxieties are unique to Jews -- I imagine Americans of Hispanic extraction must feel the same way every time they see a Taco Bell. It's a question that immigrants to America (and those descended from them) of all kinds have always had to grapple with: how do you embrace your new home without completely losing your connection to the old one? How much assimilation is too much?
morsch 11y ago
I have to admit, I don't get bagels. Beyond spiritual imagery, what's the appeal of toroidal food? The slight increase in surface area? I get that if the appeal is in the coating more so than the pastry itself, as in a chocolate donut, but with bread, my goal is usually to maximise the capacity for delicious treats to fill or cover them.
- JoeAltmaier 11y ago
  Toroidal so it cooks evenly inside and doesn't gave a gooey center. Same as donuts.
  - morsch 11y ago
    Thanks, that makes sense, though technology seems to have succeeded in making non-toroidal bread that's cooked evenly.
    - JoeAltmaier 11y ago
      Bagel is boiled then quickly baked - different process from most bread. Must have something to do with that
    - HeyLaughingBoy 11y ago
      The only reason I bake bagels is that they simply taste good. Sure it's bread, but the texture is very different (crackly crust, chewy but light interior) and the flavor is subtly different. As far as I know, the shape is incidental, since the ones that end up shaped like buns taste just like the toroidal ones.
  - bluedino 11y ago
    Right - but you could also make it into a breadstick
    - analog31 11y ago
      That was the end result of my family experimenting with both bagel and pretzel recipes when I was a kid.
marincounty 11y ago
Never work in a bagel shop. I don't know if it was me, the job, or the owner, but it was the worst job I have ever had. I was just out of college, and didn't want to wear a tie. I thought this would be a fun, temporary stint. I would get to work at 4:30 a.m. I would pack bagels, and talk to the only female in the joint. Well, I didn't know it at the time, but the owner like this girl, along with every girl that walked into his shop--including high school girls. Yea, the dude should have been but put down? Even though my intentions were innocent; I was just young and liked to talk to the fairer sex, and people my own age, Dodger(the owner) had it out for me. He had me doing all the lousy jobs. My favorite was rotating the freezer. He would give me this job when he was really angry with his personal life. It entailed taking every package out if a 10 X 20 foot freezer (crammed with product. 6" of top clearance.) and basically repacking--when I waked in at 4:30 a.m. I was so young, and naieve, I didn't know he was angry with me. And for some reason, he kept the dead rats he killed in the freezer? I don't know why, but he liked to kill rats. He would chase them around the shop and grab them with his bare hands, and feet. He would then put them in plastic bags, and keep them in the freezer. I never asked why. Kinda didn't want to know? I do remember him wiping up the blood, and thinking, they deserve better than Doger. Still have red dreams? Aa to the bagel machine, I never saw one. We rolled out the bagels, and pinched them together. Boiled them, and baked them. (I did get the recipe out of another employee, because I thought they tasted great. Will post if anyone wants, but need to find it.) I put up with this owner for too long. I finally realized I need to right some wrongs. It was the late 90's and technology was expensive--meaning he didn't have cameras. Now I should have just quit, but I needed some revenge. Since this is a public forum, let's just saw my revenge was a keen interest in the front counter, and the cash register. Yes, I was finally making a good salary. I'm not proud of it, but looking back it still feels good. Today, my shinagigans would be impossible because of the proliferation of cheap surveillance devices. Guys of my generation(basically the 80'-90's) would look for gravy, especially if treated horribly. I wonder how that has affected the economy today? Back in the day, if you had a gripe, and willing to take some real risk; you could get revenge. (I saw other guys doing what I did--basically being horrid employees in the end, but they all went into this weird denial? I guess it's human nature to not admit someting like this? ("This"--could be just cleaning the register keys. They can get so sticky? And my ip is open sometimes, and I think my neighbor is a Reaver?) Anyway, the last I heard, Dodger (the 45 year old jerk) was caught the second-third time trying to give flowers to high school girls, and he sold his store to someone. The sale was unrelated to being a creep. He would stand at their cars, dusted in flour, didn't believe in bathing, with his bouquet of flowers. He didn't understand why the 16 year olds didn't want to date him. The only thing I miss was the fresh onion bagels, with 1/2" fresh lox, creme cheese, and onions. I would sneak out two and eat them in my chit box. Thinking, "I need to go to graduate school!", and "Why does my head hurt?". I was a bit neurotic, and thought I had an aneurism. (if buying bagels, buy them the dozen. You will save money, and they freeze well. )
bluedino 11y ago
It seemed like in the 90's bagel franchises took off, and then were killed when low-carb/Atkins became popular. I love bagels but unfortunately they are really something I only enjoy fresh. A refrigerated bagel is just weird.
tribe 11y ago
The Awl ran an interesting piece on this [1] which focused more on how disruptive the bagel machine was to the bagel unions. I wonder if people will ever lament the loss of taxis if Uber and its ilk take over. [1] http://www.theawl.com/2015/09/a-disruption-cautionary-tale http://www.theawl.com/2015/09/a-disruption-cautionary-tale
- davidf18 11y ago
  A major reason why Uber has been successful (in New York at least) has been a deliberate political move to make taxis scarce by limiting taxi medallions which created a shortage of taxis as well as increased fares. The taxis in New York City have adapted to Uber by installing their own e-hailing app called Arro and they offer an advantage over Uber because there is no "surge pricing." By simply removing the political limit on taxi medallions in NYC, there will be an increase in the use of taxis because they also have the advantage over Uber in that people can hail taxis with their hand.
  - MBlume 11y ago
    > and they offer an advantage over Uber because there is no "surge pricing." That sounds like a disadvantage to me -- can you actually get one if lots of people want rides?
davidf18 11y ago
The bagels in Montreal appear to be hand made and they are placed into ovens and they are delicious.

73 points by davidf18 11y ago

wahsd 11y ago

I also find it interesting how there's a seemingly erroneous association of bagels as a Jewish food item even though the earliest depictions of bread with holes in the center appear in Egyptian hieroglyphs as far as I know.

tjr 11y ago
Is bread with holes necessarily a bagel? Wikipedia suggests likely Jewish origins in Poland: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagel
aplusbi 11y ago
And I suppose that rice isn't Latin food because it originated in Asia?
DanBC 11y ago
Did they boil then bake the dough?

russnewcomer 11y ago

As a mere 30-something, it's always amazing to me to read about these things that seemed ubiquitous when I was a child (store-bought bagels, folding ping-pong tables, even things like vacuums, electric stoves, and color TV) really are recent inventions. I had no idea that the Bagel didn't become what I think of the Bagel until this article. I regularly talk to my nearly nineties grandparents, and they regularly mention something that they are amazed by that I just take for granted (air conditioning, power steering, batteries, frozen meals, and more). I hope I don't lose my sense of wonder for the world. Here's to you, Mr. Thompson, a tinkerer from the age when one could revolutionize the world twice from one's garage.

Tenhundfeld 11y ago
+1 to your general sentiment. I have fond memories of listening to my grandmother tell stories about how her father installed the first (private, consumer) electric generator in the state of Alabama and how at night, you could see their farm glow for miles around. And I often contemplate how my 2yo daughter will think it's totally normal to have all the world's information at your fingertips 24/7. The pace of change is accelerating, and while we don't know what the future holds, this is a damned exciting time to be alive. However, I bemoan the scarcity of good bagels, and it saddens me if Lender's is your concept of a "Bagel". That's like having McDonald's or Dominos be your concept of a Hamburger or a Pizza. They're the same type of food, in general, but you really won't understand what all the fuss is about until you have a more authentic, less processed version.
- hga 11y ago
  Thing is, though, Lender's bagels, and McDonald's hamburgers, are tasty. Certainly there are better, I've had much better bagels when I've lived in big cities, but in my relatively small home city that I've retired to starting my day with a Lender's bagel, as I do almost every day, is not a bad thing.
  - Tenhundfeld 11y ago
    I acknowledge that, not trying to come across as some food snob. I've enjoyed many a McDonald's cheeseburger. They've spent literally millions of dollars to make it taste good. I should hope it tastes good to most people. But if that's the only burger you've ever tasted, you should really try one made by somebody who grinds/chops their own meat. It's different, better I think, but it's also going to cost 10 times as much. And yeah, I've enjoyed a few Lender's bagels, toasted with some butter or cream cheese, maybe even gasp some jelly. Untoasted, they're far too spongey, IMO, and I greatly prefer a denser, chewier texture with a stronger flavor. But that doesn't mean Lender's tastes bad.
- russnewcomer 11y ago
  I personally don't think the pace of change is accelerating, I think the uniformity of acceptance of change is. In regards to your second paragraph, I don't know if 'more authentic' really means what you think it does. I've had the idea for a while that traditions around food are a lot more fungible than is popularly thought. Something like the documentary The Search for General Tso [ http://www.thesearchforgeneraltso.com/ http://www.thesearchforgeneraltso.com/ ] or Rachel Laudan's work [ http://www.utne.com/environment/fast-food-culinary-ethos.aspx http://www.utne.com/environment/fast-food-culinary-ethos.asp... or https://www.jacobinmag.com/2015/05/slow-food-artisanal-natural-preservatives/ https://www.jacobinmag.com/2015/05/slow-food-artisanal-natur... ] better illustrates it than I could in a comment.

keithpeter 11y ago

Anyone know of a traditional bagel bakery in UK? Beigel Bake perhaps (Brick Lane)? I always thought bagels were a bit harder so they lasted longer like German rye loaf. I didn't know about the dough-boiling bit.

0xdeadbeefbabe 11y ago
Where do I get German rye loaf in the western USA?
- avn2109 11y ago
  This place [0] was one of the best in North America for real bread but they are now long gone. [0] http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Tassajara-Bakery-to-close-its-doors-3089165.php http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Tassajara-Bakery-to-close... Sorry. Maybe they have a spiritual heir that someone here can identify.
- eltondegeneres 11y ago
  In SF, Cinderella Bakery or Moscow & Tbilisi Bakery.
njs12345 11y ago
I think there were bagels in Brick Lane before they were in the US, so in that sense it's a very traditional bagel indeed.. Not sure how long the shops there have been going though (white or orange).

tfinniga 11y ago

There's a schizoid perspective in this article that arises a lot with these kinds of things. Bagels used to be better, and there were tons of people making them! But there weren't enough bagels, because not enough people were making them! Hand-rolled bagels taste so much better! But Americans like the texture and flavor of the machine-rolled ones better! You used to only be able to get authentic hand-rolled bagels in cities with a large Jewish population, which was exclusive and cool! But now, you can only get authentic hand-rolled bagels in cities with a large Jewish population, which is awful! Bagel hipsters.

thornofmight 11y ago
I can see your blue eye peering through a bagel's hole into the heart of modern times.
smacktoward 11y ago
> You used to only be able to get authentic hand-rolled bagels in cities with a large Jewish population, which was exclusive and cool! But now, you can only get authentic hand-rolled bagels in cities with a large Jewish population, which is awful! It's more complicated than that. First, the article notes that the old-style bagels are hard to find now, even in cities like New York with large Jewish populations where they used to be everywhere. Even though they still had people there who preferred them, they were driven out of those markets by a combination of factors arising from the rise of the machine-made bagel. Since "bagel-maker" isn't a career that an artisan can make a living at anymore, for instance, the knowledge of how those old bagels got made doesn't get passed down from one generation to another like it used to. Eventually that knowledge will be lost, and the machine-made bagel will be the only bagel. So it's not a straight case of everyone's better off; if you're one of the people who lives in those markets and prefers the traditional bagel, you're losing it. It's possible to argue that loss is outweighed by the benefit everyone else in the world gets from having access to any kind of bagel at all, but it's definitely a loss. Second, it's tied up with longstanding anxieties in the American Jewish community (anxieties that will be familiar to any immigrant minority) about assimilation. On one hand, if you are Jewish or love Jewish culture, it's exciting to see something as central to that culture as the bagel exploding outside the Jewish community to the plates of the nation at large; when Jewish food becomes American food, it helps reinforce the idea that the days when Jews were seen as foreign or alien are over. But the flip side of that is that you can look at the bagel that's landing on all those gentile plates and worry that maybe the price of becoming "American" involves having to give up the distinctiveness that makes Jewish culture Jewish. Is that too high a price for what it buys? How much of traditional Jewish culture can you give up before you've given up your Jewish identity altogether? None of those anxieties are unique to Jews -- I imagine Americans of Hispanic extraction must feel the same way every time they see a Taco Bell. It's a question that immigrants to America (and those descended from them) of all kinds have always had to grapple with: how do you embrace your new home without completely losing your connection to the old one? How much assimilation is too much?

morsch 11y ago

I have to admit, I don't get bagels. Beyond spiritual imagery, what's the appeal of toroidal food? The slight increase in surface area? I get that if the appeal is in the coating more so than the pastry itself, as in a chocolate donut, but with bread, my goal is usually to maximise the capacity for delicious treats to fill or cover them.

JoeAltmaier 11y ago
Toroidal so it cooks evenly inside and doesn't gave a gooey center. Same as donuts.
- morsch 11y ago
  Thanks, that makes sense, though technology seems to have succeeded in making non-toroidal bread that's cooked evenly.
  - JoeAltmaier 11y ago
    Bagel is boiled then quickly baked - different process from most bread. Must have something to do with that
  - HeyLaughingBoy 11y ago
    The only reason I bake bagels is that they simply taste good. Sure it's bread, but the texture is very different (crackly crust, chewy but light interior) and the flavor is subtly different. As far as I know, the shape is incidental, since the ones that end up shaped like buns taste just like the toroidal ones.
- bluedino 11y ago
  Right - but you could also make it into a breadstick
  - analog31 11y ago
    That was the end result of my family experimenting with both bagel and pretzel recipes when I was a kid.

marincounty 11y ago

Never work in a bagel shop. I don't know if it was me, the job, or the owner, but it was the worst job I have ever had. I was just out of college, and didn't want to wear a tie. I thought this would be a fun, temporary stint. I would get to work at 4:30 a.m. I would pack bagels, and talk to the only female in the joint. Well, I didn't know it at the time, but the owner like this girl, along with every girl that walked into his shop--including high school girls. Yea, the dude should have been but put down? Even though my intentions were innocent; I was just young and liked to talk to the fairer sex, and people my own age, Dodger(the owner) had it out for me. He had me doing all the lousy jobs. My favorite was rotating the freezer. He would give me this job when he was really angry with his personal life. It entailed taking every package out if a 10 X 20 foot freezer (crammed with product. 6" of top clearance.) and basically repacking--when I waked in at 4:30 a.m. I was so young, and naieve, I didn't know he was angry with me. And for some reason, he kept the dead rats he killed in the freezer? I don't know why, but he liked to kill rats. He would chase them around the shop and grab them with his bare hands, and feet. He would then put them in plastic bags, and keep them in the freezer. I never asked why. Kinda didn't want to know? I do remember him wiping up the blood, and thinking, they deserve better than Doger. Still have red dreams? Aa to the bagel machine, I never saw one. We rolled out the bagels, and pinched them together. Boiled them, and baked them. (I did get the recipe out of another employee, because I thought they tasted great. Will post if anyone wants, but need to find it.) I put up with this owner for too long. I finally realized I need to right some wrongs. It was the late 90's and technology was expensive--meaning he didn't have cameras. Now I should have just quit, but I needed some revenge. Since this is a public forum, let's just saw my revenge was a keen interest in the front counter, and the cash register. Yes, I was finally making a good salary. I'm not proud of it, but looking back it still feels good. Today, my shinagigans would be impossible because of the proliferation of cheap surveillance devices. Guys of my generation(basically the 80'-90's) would look for gravy, especially if treated horribly. I wonder how that has affected the economy today? Back in the day, if you had a gripe, and willing to take some real risk; you could get revenge. (I saw other guys doing what I did--basically being horrid employees in the end, but they all went into this weird denial? I guess it's human nature to not admit someting like this? ("This"--could be just cleaning the register keys. They can get so sticky? And my ip is open sometimes, and I think my neighbor is a Reaver?) Anyway, the last I heard, Dodger (the 45 year old jerk) was caught the second-third time trying to give flowers to high school girls, and he sold his store to someone. The sale was unrelated to being a creep. He would stand at their cars, dusted in flour, didn't believe in bathing, with his bouquet of flowers. He didn't understand why the 16 year olds didn't want to date him. The only thing I miss was the fresh onion bagels, with 1/2" fresh lox, creme cheese, and onions. I would sneak out two and eat them in my chit box. Thinking, "I need to go to graduate school!", and "Why does my head hurt?". I was a bit neurotic, and thought I had an aneurism. (if buying bagels, buy them the dozen. You will save money, and they freeze well. )

bluedino 11y ago

It seemed like in the 90's bagel franchises took off, and then were killed when low-carb/Atkins became popular. I love bagels but unfortunately they are really something I only enjoy fresh. A refrigerated bagel is just weird.

tribe 11y ago

The Awl ran an interesting piece on this [1] which focused more on how disruptive the bagel machine was to the bagel unions. I wonder if people will ever lament the loss of taxis if Uber and its ilk take over. [1] http://www.theawl.com/2015/09/a-disruption-cautionary-tale http://www.theawl.com/2015/09/a-disruption-cautionary-tale

davidf18 11y ago
A major reason why Uber has been successful (in New York at least) has been a deliberate political move to make taxis scarce by limiting taxi medallions which created a shortage of taxis as well as increased fares. The taxis in New York City have adapted to Uber by installing their own e-hailing app called Arro and they offer an advantage over Uber because there is no "surge pricing." By simply removing the political limit on taxi medallions in NYC, there will be an increase in the use of taxis because they also have the advantage over Uber in that people can hail taxis with their hand.
- MBlume 11y ago
  > and they offer an advantage over Uber because there is no "surge pricing." That sounds like a disadvantage to me -- can you actually get one if lots of people want rides?

davidf18 11y ago

The bagels in Montreal appear to be hand made and they are placed into ovens and they are delicious.