4 ms·

Founder visa bill proposed

57 points by chickamade 17y ago

leelin 17y ago
Personally, I think the more wealth and brains we have in the country the better, but $100K seems cheap enough to invite lots of shady cases. I could start the "Visa Arbitrage Angel Fund" that only makes $100K investments into startups with $20K+ in the bank, then require the startup buy me out one week after closing for $120K (or make monthly payments of $10K for a year, or some other wacky clause that makes my investment an awful loan instead of a real investment). Now we've invented a way for foreigners with $20K to buy a visa. The proposed program would make more visas available to entrepreneurs who have at least $250,000 in funding from a U.S.-based venture capital firm, or $100,000 in angel funding.
- Keyframe 17y ago
  Interesting idea, but won't this allow wealthy foreigners to buy their way into the States? how is that different from: The current system grants 10,000 visas each year primarily to investors that have financed over $1 million with plans to create at least 10 full-time positions. except it would allow for more relaxed terms?
  - deleted 17y ago
    [deleted]
- JimmyL 17y ago
  You probably could - and one could make the argument that someone that industrious is exactly the kind of person you'd want. However, the visa status is contingent on the company following through with its business plan to create X job and/or take in $1M of revenue. If the company isn't doing that (or if "the investment in the commercial enterprise was intended solely as a means of evading the immigration laws of the United States" - which seems like it would cover what you're describing), the visa gets pulled and the deportation process begins. One can also imagine that INS would keep a very tight leash on the program in its first few years to make sure this isn't happening.
  - anamax 17y ago
    > the visa gets pulled and the deportation process begins. > One can also imagine that INS would keep a very tight leash on the program in its first few years to make sure this isn't happening. Experience with student and vacation visas suggests otherwise.
- leecho0 17y ago
  Wealthy foreigners already do buy their way into the States through the EB-5 visa. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EB-5_visa http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EB-5_visa The startup visa seeks to change the EB-5 visa to include people who aren't wealthy, but would also create jobs in the US by starting viable companies.
  - mechanical_fish 17y ago
    This is an interesting link. I always wondered how much money I would need to buy my way into permanent residency in any country in the world. (I am assuming that the USA is among the most difficult -- those with expertise, please correct me if I'm wrong.) It's one of those useful benchmarks for how rich "rich" is. The price is high, but not astoundingly high, if I'm reading this right. You need $500k in capital that you're willing to invest in "certain qualified investments or regional centers with high unemployment rates". You don't even necessarily have to lose the $500k, or even lose anything. You just need the capital.
    - ajaimk 17y ago
      Then it might interest you that Panama requires only proof that you made $500/month to get a retirement visa
      - borism 17y ago
        Interesting, but as I understand it this $500 is supposed to be your real pension, not some other form of income, thus requiring most of visitors of HN to wait some half a century until retirement in Panama :)
        ajaimk 17y ago
        The alternative is to buy a house for $200,000
JimmyL 17y ago
Small discussion on this bill last night at http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1024137 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1024137.
jacquesm 17y ago
The funny thing is that not that many people that would be able to afford this would actually do it. The USA is a nice country but there are many parameters that go in to the decision of choosing a place to live and it scores low on plenty of those. The US is the destination country of choice for people without money. Those with money are just as likely to go elsewhere.
- aristus 17y ago
  I have to disagree, at least anecdotally. I know several people, whom I'm pretty sure don't have to work if they don't want to. Yet they moved to the US specifically in order to start companies. And even they, rich, educated folk from "good" countries have had ridiculous amounts of trouble getting visas and work permission.
  - jacquesm 17y ago
    Anecdotally, I know at least several Americans that have moved to Europe, at least one pretty affluent. But anecdotes are nice, numbers are better. For every wealthy person that would like to get 'in' to the US there must be 50,000 poor ones. The difference is that for them nobody is going out of their way to create special visa to allow them entrance.
- cwan 17y ago
  One thing the stats don't show, and I'm quite curious about, are those who are wealthy but seek greater (or even continue to seek) opportunities. The bulk of taxes don't tax wealth - they tax income (and gains on wealth like capital gains, interest and dividends get treated differently depending on where you go). Perversely, the rich have the luxury then to be subsidized for certain parameters because they don't need to pay for what they see as the benefits of living in that given place. For this reason, you can get some remarkable statements like the year that Warren Buffett said something to the effect that there is something wrong with a system when his secretary gets taxed as a percent more than he does. Of course, we later learned this was somewhat disingenuous given most of his income wasn't personal income at all but dividends (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/money/tax/article1996735.ece http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/money/tax/article1996735.ec...). This being said, how is your comment relevant to the startup visa? The idea as I understand it would be to attract those without money but who need it from VC's - and as you say, the US is often the destination of choice for those like that. The point being to attract great entrepreneurs from countries that don't welcome them - at least a number of countries being a case in point: http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=4095&print=1 http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=4095&#38... - "In one 2005 poll, just 36 percent of French citizens said they supported the free-enterprise system, the only one of 22 countries polled that showed minority support for this cornerstone of global commerce. In Germany, meanwhile, support for socialist ideals is running at all-time highs—47 percent in 2007 versus 36 percent in 1991."
dghughes 17y ago
In my province there was a similar program, Provincial Nominee Program or PNP, an immigrant would invest $200,000 in a local business plus give a $25,000 deposit to the provincial government and the immigrant investor's citizenship request would be fast-tracked. After living here for a year they were supposed to get the deposit back, but they didn't. Even worse is the majority of the people who benefited were the same politicians who set up the program. Now it's a huge scandal and the police are involved, large amounts of money plus politicians and there's a scandal, imagine that!
ajaimk 17y ago
Timeline seems highly appropriate for me since I graduate from college in 2 years (since I am on a student visa). Maybe I will be able to stay in the US and work on my startup as I want to (during the best years of my life) than sell my soul for a corporate job.
ajaimk 17y ago
What if the company fails in 6 months? Do note that the visa is one for "Permanent" residence.
- mivok 17y ago
  It's possible that it will end up being a 'conditional permanent residence' that you have to renew after 2 years (the condition being that you still have the company). This is what happens for green cards that are granted on the basis of a new marriage.
  - ajaimk 17y ago
    That would probably work. I just hope we don't end up with another SARBOX where the requirements outweigh the benefits
marcamillion 17y ago
The only comment I would add to this is pg's quote at the end of the article "I think this would have such a visible effect on the economy that it would make the legislator who introduced the bill famous," says Graham. "The only way to know for sure would be to try it, and that would cost practically nothing." Unfortunately...that's not true. It might cost no money, but it could cost the congressmen and senators their job at the next mid-term elections. Immigration reform is a hot-button topic, so as much as it would be a great thing to do, it might be politically untenable right now. Note: I am a foreigner, that would definitely want to take advantage of this program if the bill is passed and it is implemented. Just commenting on the quote :)

57 points by chickamade 17y ago

Personally, I think the more wealth and brains we have in the country the better, but $100K seems cheap enough to invite lots of shady cases. I could start the "Visa Arbitrage Angel Fund" that only makes $100K investments into startups with $20K+ in the bank, then require the startup buy me out one week after closing for $120K (or make monthly payments of $10K for a year, or some other wacky clause that makes my investment an awful loan instead of a real investment). Now we've invented a way for foreigners with $20K to buy a visa. The proposed program would make more visas available to entrepreneurs who have at least $250,000 in funding from a U.S.-based venture capital firm, or $100,000 in angel funding.

Keyframe 17y ago
Interesting idea, but won't this allow wealthy foreigners to buy their way into the States? how is that different from: The current system grants 10,000 visas each year primarily to investors that have financed over $1 million with plans to create at least 10 full-time positions. except it would allow for more relaxed terms?
- deleted 17y ago
  [deleted]
JimmyL 17y ago
You probably could - and one could make the argument that someone that industrious is exactly the kind of person you'd want. However, the visa status is contingent on the company following through with its business plan to create X job and/or take in $1M of revenue. If the company isn't doing that (or if "the investment in the commercial enterprise was intended solely as a means of evading the immigration laws of the United States" - which seems like it would cover what you're describing), the visa gets pulled and the deportation process begins. One can also imagine that INS would keep a very tight leash on the program in its first few years to make sure this isn't happening.
- anamax 17y ago
  > the visa gets pulled and the deportation process begins. > One can also imagine that INS would keep a very tight leash on the program in its first few years to make sure this isn't happening. Experience with student and vacation visas suggests otherwise.
leecho0 17y ago
Wealthy foreigners already do buy their way into the States through the EB-5 visa. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EB-5_visa http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EB-5_visa The startup visa seeks to change the EB-5 visa to include people who aren't wealthy, but would also create jobs in the US by starting viable companies.
- mechanical_fish 17y ago
  This is an interesting link. I always wondered how much money I would need to buy my way into permanent residency in any country in the world. (I am assuming that the USA is among the most difficult -- those with expertise, please correct me if I'm wrong.) It's one of those useful benchmarks for how rich "rich" is. The price is high, but not astoundingly high, if I'm reading this right. You need $500k in capital that you're willing to invest in "certain qualified investments or regional centers with high unemployment rates". You don't even necessarily have to lose the $500k, or even lose anything. You just need the capital.
  - ajaimk 17y ago
    Then it might interest you that Panama requires only proof that you made $500/month to get a retirement visa
    - borism 17y ago
      Interesting, but as I understand it this $500 is supposed to be your real pension, not some other form of income, thus requiring most of visitors of HN to wait some half a century until retirement in Panama :)
      - ajaimk 17y ago
        The alternative is to buy a house for $200,000

JimmyL 17y ago

Small discussion on this bill last night at http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1024137 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1024137.

jacquesm 17y ago

The funny thing is that not that many people that would be able to afford this would actually do it. The USA is a nice country but there are many parameters that go in to the decision of choosing a place to live and it scores low on plenty of those. The US is the destination country of choice for people without money. Those with money are just as likely to go elsewhere.

aristus 17y ago
I have to disagree, at least anecdotally. I know several people, whom I'm pretty sure don't have to work if they don't want to. Yet they moved to the US specifically in order to start companies. And even they, rich, educated folk from "good" countries have had ridiculous amounts of trouble getting visas and work permission.
- jacquesm 17y ago
  Anecdotally, I know at least several Americans that have moved to Europe, at least one pretty affluent. But anecdotes are nice, numbers are better. For every wealthy person that would like to get 'in' to the US there must be 50,000 poor ones. The difference is that for them nobody is going out of their way to create special visa to allow them entrance.
cwan 17y ago
One thing the stats don't show, and I'm quite curious about, are those who are wealthy but seek greater (or even continue to seek) opportunities. The bulk of taxes don't tax wealth - they tax income (and gains on wealth like capital gains, interest and dividends get treated differently depending on where you go). Perversely, the rich have the luxury then to be subsidized for certain parameters because they don't need to pay for what they see as the benefits of living in that given place. For this reason, you can get some remarkable statements like the year that Warren Buffett said something to the effect that there is something wrong with a system when his secretary gets taxed as a percent more than he does. Of course, we later learned this was somewhat disingenuous given most of his income wasn't personal income at all but dividends (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/money/tax/article1996735.ece http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/money/tax/article1996735.ec...). This being said, how is your comment relevant to the startup visa? The idea as I understand it would be to attract those without money but who need it from VC's - and as you say, the US is often the destination of choice for those like that. The point being to attract great entrepreneurs from countries that don't welcome them - at least a number of countries being a case in point: http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=4095&print=1 http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=4095&#38... - "In one 2005 poll, just 36 percent of French citizens said they supported the free-enterprise system, the only one of 22 countries polled that showed minority support for this cornerstone of global commerce. In Germany, meanwhile, support for socialist ideals is running at all-time highs—47 percent in 2007 versus 36 percent in 1991."

dghughes 17y ago

In my province there was a similar program, Provincial Nominee Program or PNP, an immigrant would invest $200,000 in a local business plus give a $25,000 deposit to the provincial government and the immigrant investor's citizenship request would be fast-tracked. After living here for a year they were supposed to get the deposit back, but they didn't. Even worse is the majority of the people who benefited were the same politicians who set up the program. Now it's a huge scandal and the police are involved, large amounts of money plus politicians and there's a scandal, imagine that!

ajaimk 17y ago

Timeline seems highly appropriate for me since I graduate from college in 2 years (since I am on a student visa). Maybe I will be able to stay in the US and work on my startup as I want to (during the best years of my life) than sell my soul for a corporate job.

ajaimk 17y ago

What if the company fails in 6 months? Do note that the visa is one for "Permanent" residence.

mivok 17y ago
It's possible that it will end up being a 'conditional permanent residence' that you have to renew after 2 years (the condition being that you still have the company). This is what happens for green cards that are granted on the basis of a new marriage.
- ajaimk 17y ago
  That would probably work. I just hope we don't end up with another SARBOX where the requirements outweigh the benefits

marcamillion 17y ago

The only comment I would add to this is pg's quote at the end of the article "I think this would have such a visible effect on the economy that it would make the legislator who introduced the bill famous," says Graham. "The only way to know for sure would be to try it, and that would cost practically nothing." Unfortunately...that's not true. It might cost no money, but it could cost the congressmen and senators their job at the next mid-term elections. Immigration reform is a hot-button topic, so as much as it would be a great thing to do, it might be politically untenable right now. Note: I am a foreigner, that would definitely want to take advantage of this program if the bill is passed and it is implemented. Just commenting on the quote :)