5 ms·

"lisp machines were made by (pretty much) a single company (symbolics)" Actually, there was a rivalry with another company that's really worth mentioning, LMI

by ploxiln 11y ago

"lisp machines were made by (pretty much) a single company (symbolics)" Actually, there was a rivalry with another company that's really worth mentioning, LMI (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisp_machine#Commercialization_of_the_MIT_Lisp_Machine_technology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisp_machine#Commercialization...) "the amount of engineering effort that went into these machines far outweighs what you might get in a modern computer" - "the computer in front of you was probably purchased for a sum between $100 and $1000, and it represents $100 to $1000 worth of engineering. the kind of computer representing hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars of engineering are, well, pretty slick" That's a pretty ridiculous comparison. The design of the intel chip in your cheap computer, and the fab process to manufacture it, really are worth billions. It's just automation and scale that brings the price down to a couple hundred.

RockyMcNuts 11y ago
Yeah... author should read Hackers before writing another word about history of computing, there is hardly a correct sentence in that blog post - http://www.amazon.com/Hackers-Computer-Revolution-Anniversary-Edition/dp/1449388396 http://www.amazon.com/Hackers-Computer-Revolution-Anniversar...
- gizmo385 11y ago
  I'm reading this book for a class right now and, personally, haven't enjoyed it so far. It treats these people as though the MIT hacker crowd as though these people are/were gods and I think does a lot to dehumanize them. It just reads like a fluff piece that skips over technical details in favor of what feels like blind infatuation.
  - maxlybbert 11y ago
    The writing is so bad that it distracts from the story. It once mentions that somebody had access to "the best computer in the world known to man." How many computers exist that aren't known to man? I don't blame the writer in that particular case, but the editor really should have known better. In another case, Levy tells a story about a chess program with a bug in it. If I remember correctly, the program was in check, and moved a knight that didn't get the program out of check. In other words, it took an illegal move. Levy says the programmers were in awe of this program; wondering if it was inventing new rules to increase its enjoyment of chess. I have a hard time believing the programmers truly thought they had created a self-aware program that would modify the rules of a game to increase its own enjoyment. I'm sure they knew a bug when they saw it. Levy, on the other hand, apparently did not, or thought that his audience would overlook such a silly statement. I do blame the writer for that one, and wonder why the editor didn't flag it as well. There are good books on computer history. And there are good books about computers from the early days (written in the early days). "Hackers" is not one of those books.
    - jfoutz 11y ago
      > How many computers exist that aren't known to man? That's a tough question to answer. The universe is a big place, so i'm going to go with a lot. Although, I do understand your annoyance. The original phrasing with the "in the world" is stupid.
    - cafard 11y ago
      P.J. Plauger had an article once about a co-worker who coded a chess program, which had two serious flaws: he got the search algorithm wrong, so that it was very easy to beat; and he didn't program it to lose, so that it would start to add pieces back in when it was about to. Plauger wrote, If you think kids enjoyed beating it, you should have seen their glee when got it to cheat.
- maxlybbert 11y ago
  I'm not sure that there's a correct sentence in "Hackers." It got enough details wrong that I used the book as a source of stories that I needed to look into to see if there was a kernel of truth to them (plus, the editor apparently didn't know how to edit). There is enough about Lisp Machines available, though: * http://www.gnu.org/gnu/rms-lisp.en.html http://www.gnu.org/gnu/rms-lisp.en.html * http://ergoemacs.org/misc/Daniel_Weinreb_rebuttal_to_stallmans_story.txt http://ergoemacs.org/misc/Daniel_Weinreb_rebuttal_to_stallma... (mirror of a blog post by Weinreb, made shortly after Weinreb died) * http://www.dreamsongs.com/Files/Hopl2.pdf http://www.dreamsongs.com/Files/Hopl2.pdf
kjs3 11y ago
LMI wasn't even the big competitor. Texas Instruments and Xerox also produced dedicated Lisp machines.
jkldotio 11y ago
It's such a ridiculous line. Even putting aside that many laptops and desktops cost over $1000 Intel spends over $10 billion a year on R&D and machines.[0] Add to that the kind of engineering that goes into the physical form of a Thinkpad or a Macbook Air, both of which are far more impressive that a stationary monolith. Then add the kind of engineering that goes into a modern Ubuntu, Windows or Mac OSX. Someone estimated as far back as 2008 that just the Linux kernel alone represents over 1 billion dollars of R&D.[1] [0]http://fortune.com/2014/11/17/top-10-research-development/ http://fortune.com/2014/11/17/top-10-research-development/ [1]http://radar.oreilly.com/2008/10/linux-kernel-worth-1bn.html http://radar.oreilly.com/2008/10/linux-kernel-worth-1bn.html
- lispm 11y ago
  I think he is talking about something different. The difference is like this: A 5 dollar plastic keyboard vs. a handmade $1000+ keyboard with mechanical switches. The very first Lisp Machines were handmade $100000 pieces of hardware. With wire-wrapped boards made of zillions of low-integrated chips and various other components. Huge power supplies for several KW worth of electricity. Really everything was specially made, like 25m long console cables with signals for monitor, mouse, sound and keyboard.

by ploxiln 11y ago

RockyMcNuts 11y ago

Yeah... author should read Hackers before writing another word about history of computing, there is hardly a correct sentence in that blog post - http://www.amazon.com/Hackers-Computer-Revolution-Anniversary-Edition/dp/1449388396 http://www.amazon.com/Hackers-Computer-Revolution-Anniversar...

gizmo385 11y ago
I'm reading this book for a class right now and, personally, haven't enjoyed it so far. It treats these people as though the MIT hacker crowd as though these people are/were gods and I think does a lot to dehumanize them. It just reads like a fluff piece that skips over technical details in favor of what feels like blind infatuation.
- maxlybbert 11y ago
  The writing is so bad that it distracts from the story. It once mentions that somebody had access to "the best computer in the world known to man." How many computers exist that aren't known to man? I don't blame the writer in that particular case, but the editor really should have known better. In another case, Levy tells a story about a chess program with a bug in it. If I remember correctly, the program was in check, and moved a knight that didn't get the program out of check. In other words, it took an illegal move. Levy says the programmers were in awe of this program; wondering if it was inventing new rules to increase its enjoyment of chess. I have a hard time believing the programmers truly thought they had created a self-aware program that would modify the rules of a game to increase its own enjoyment. I'm sure they knew a bug when they saw it. Levy, on the other hand, apparently did not, or thought that his audience would overlook such a silly statement. I do blame the writer for that one, and wonder why the editor didn't flag it as well. There are good books on computer history. And there are good books about computers from the early days (written in the early days). "Hackers" is not one of those books.
  - jfoutz 11y ago
    > How many computers exist that aren't known to man? That's a tough question to answer. The universe is a big place, so i'm going to go with a lot. Although, I do understand your annoyance. The original phrasing with the "in the world" is stupid.
  - cafard 11y ago
    P.J. Plauger had an article once about a co-worker who coded a chess program, which had two serious flaws: he got the search algorithm wrong, so that it was very easy to beat; and he didn't program it to lose, so that it would start to add pieces back in when it was about to. Plauger wrote, If you think kids enjoyed beating it, you should have seen their glee when got it to cheat.
maxlybbert 11y ago
I'm not sure that there's a correct sentence in "Hackers." It got enough details wrong that I used the book as a source of stories that I needed to look into to see if there was a kernel of truth to them (plus, the editor apparently didn't know how to edit). There is enough about Lisp Machines available, though: * http://www.gnu.org/gnu/rms-lisp.en.html http://www.gnu.org/gnu/rms-lisp.en.html * http://ergoemacs.org/misc/Daniel_Weinreb_rebuttal_to_stallmans_story.txt http://ergoemacs.org/misc/Daniel_Weinreb_rebuttal_to_stallma... (mirror of a blog post by Weinreb, made shortly after Weinreb died) * http://www.dreamsongs.com/Files/Hopl2.pdf http://www.dreamsongs.com/Files/Hopl2.pdf

kjs3 11y ago

LMI wasn't even the big competitor. Texas Instruments and Xerox also produced dedicated Lisp machines.

jkldotio 11y ago

It's such a ridiculous line. Even putting aside that many laptops and desktops cost over $1000 Intel spends over $10 billion a year on R&D and machines.[0] Add to that the kind of engineering that goes into the physical form of a Thinkpad or a Macbook Air, both of which are far more impressive that a stationary monolith. Then add the kind of engineering that goes into a modern Ubuntu, Windows or Mac OSX. Someone estimated as far back as 2008 that just the Linux kernel alone represents over 1 billion dollars of R&D.[1] [0]http://fortune.com/2014/11/17/top-10-research-development/ http://fortune.com/2014/11/17/top-10-research-development/ [1]http://radar.oreilly.com/2008/10/linux-kernel-worth-1bn.html http://radar.oreilly.com/2008/10/linux-kernel-worth-1bn.html

lispm 11y ago
I think he is talking about something different. The difference is like this: A 5 dollar plastic keyboard vs. a handmade $1000+ keyboard with mechanical switches. The very first Lisp Machines were handmade $100000 pieces of hardware. With wire-wrapped boards made of zillions of low-integrated chips and various other components. Huge power supplies for several KW worth of electricity. Really everything was specially made, like 25m long console cables with signals for monitor, mouse, sound and keyboard.