8 ms·

Apple refunding all purchases of Peace

92 points by coloneltcb 11y ago

Retr0spectrum 11y ago
What this is refering to: http://www.marco.org/2015/09/18/just-doesnt-feel-good http://www.marco.org/2015/09/18/just-doesnt-feel-good
tempestn 11y ago
Apparently Marco Arment made an ad-blocking app for iOS called Peace, then after 2 days decided that he didn't want to be in the ad blocking business for ethical reasons and so pulled the app. He explains his reasoning here: http://www.marco.org/2015/09/18/just-doesnt-feel-good http://www.marco.org/2015/09/18/just-doesnt-feel-good In this update, Apple has made the (apparently unprecedented) decision to proactively refund all purchases of the app, rather than requiring users to request refunds individually.
- PhasmaFelis 11y ago
  There really needs to be some way to pin these "necessary context for understanding the post" comments to the top of the thread. (Other than just upvoting, which as of right now hasn't yet achieved that.)
  - lobster_johnson 11y ago
    Afaik, upvoting will only work for a while -- I believe the sorting algorithm uses time as a factor, to allow newer comments to bubble up above higher-rated ones.
  - rajacombinator 11y ago
    Additional context needed: is there something new in iOS 9 that makes ad blocking possible?
    - mehrdada 11y ago
      Yes, iOS 9 introduces a new content blocking API making ad blockers in Safari possible: https://developer.apple.com/library/prerelease/ios/releasenotes/General/WhatsNewInSafari/Articles/Safari_9.html https://developer.apple.com/library/prerelease/ios/releaseno...
    - itsmillertime4u 11y ago
      The device has to be a 64-bit CPU though. So if you load iOS 9 on an older iPad or iPhone, then you will not get this feature.
  - anon4 11y ago
    Even better - a small "context" link you can hover and get the context right there on the front page.
solutionyogi 11y ago
Wow. That's a real example of putting money where the mouth is. I always felt that he is an opinionated, stand up guy but this move actually proves that he means what he says and he was sincere about his feelings on ad blockers [1]. Much respect. [1] http://www.marco.org/2015/09/18/just-doesnt-feel-good http://www.marco.org/2015/09/18/just-doesnt-feel-good
- benologist 11y ago
  In the submitted post he says Apple made the decision without consulting him.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - loumf 11y ago
    This makes sense. The App Store is a store and Marco is a wholesaler to the store -- the customer's relationship is with Apple. Stores refund purchases all of the time without talking to their suppliers (or asking permission). Peace uses a block-list that was kept up-to-date on a server -- without it, the app is useless (defective). Apple would be negligent not to refund it immediately.
- johnpowell 11y ago
  He was a founder in Tumblr. He probably isn't worried about cash.
  - ryanSrich 11y ago
    Yep. Pretty easy to put your money where your mouth is when you have gobs of it.
    - idlewords 11y ago
      That's just a pointlessly catty thing to say.
blazespin 11y ago
Surreal. What's wrong with ad blocking? Maybe it would have created a market for micropayments which maybe it's far superior to ads? I know on my MIFI which charges insane amounts for wifi, anything that blocks popup videos or images while maintaining text and formatting is definitely loved by me.
- draw_down 11y ago
  He explained his decision in a previous post. I think it's more interesting to focus on him as an example of doing something difficult because he felt it was the right thing to do.
  - blazespin 11y ago
    His reasoning is unsound. Crippling user experience for some vague, completely unsupported belief that content can't be supported by anything except ads is hugely misguided. Maybe content could be 10x valuable (because much of the noise would be eliminated) if micropayments had a chance to take off. Who knows! Let the market figure it out... For Marco to think he can penetrate the mists of the internet economy single handedly is the height of arrogance.
    - xlm1717 11y ago
      It is hugely misguided. Obviously, there is strong demand for ad-blocking. Someone else will move into this space and serve that demand. He didn't make a statement, he made a headache for all the people who downloaded his app, and for Apple who now has to refund all their purchases.
      - stouset 11y ago
        There is demand for all sorts of products you personally are capable of building, yet wouldn't for reasons of personal ethics. Should we judge you on your failure to bring these to market? After all, if you don't build it someone else will.
    - 11y ago
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
TillE 11y ago
It must have been annoying for them to deal with thousands of refund requests by hand. I was expecting Apple would just bulk-approve refunds for this app, but it's great that they've gone one step further.
- rdsnsca 11y ago
  Apple handles the refund processes completely.
  - wingerlang 11y ago
    He did not imply anything else.
logicallee 11y ago
(In general "which charity" has a simple answer: any. In general donating proceeds immediately solves accusations of self-interest, except perhaps for the component that it's reactionary rather than being announced ahead of time.)
- coldtea 11y ago
  >In general donating proceeds immediately solves accusations of self-interest Well, you still get the tax deducations, don't you? Plus the goodwill ("here I gave all those to charity") bought with other people's money.
  - mikeash 11y ago
    The tax deduction just cancels out the tax liability from receiving that money.
johnpowell 11y ago
Here is what it Apple said regarding my my refund. http://pastebin.com/2zgmekPi http://pastebin.com/2zgmekPi
- freehunter 11y ago
  Rather interesting that clicking on that link, I see a banner above the content saying "you have an adblocker installed, please pay for our content with cash".
- PJones 11y ago
  Weird. I'm in the UK, and just chose the 'I want to cancel the order' option. The email confirming my request and the email confirming the refund had been accepted literally arrived in the same minute.
  - skrause 11y ago
    The "I want to cancel the order" option is only available in the EU and a few other countries (like Taiwan) for up to 14 days after your purchase, but not in the US.
trollian 11y ago
Are they removing the app from peoples' phones too?
- Synaesthesia 11y ago
  If you've already bought the app you can use it, not sure if you'll be able to redownload it in future.
- ikeboy 11y ago
  No. If you back it up, you can keep it forever (but it might stop working on a later version of iOS). See http://ipod.about.com/od/theappstore/a/How-To-Install-Apps-Removed-From-The-App-Store.htm http://ipod.about.com/od/theappstore/a/How-To-Install-Apps-R...
coldtea 11y ago
About this guilt for ad-blocking thing: wasn't Marco's entire fortune (pre Tumblr buyout) made by selling a service used to bypass content owners entirely and read their articles without ads, in one page, and in his own templates?
- adiabatty 11y ago
  Not really. Instapaper's design was such that you had to look at the site — with all the ads — at least once to save the page to it. This was by design. Instapaper users wouldn't see ads on subsequent pages or on subsequent viewings, though.
  - tcbawo 11y ago
    Skipping the cruft of formatting and advertisements was a prime benefit, as I recall. How many users wouldn't immediately jump to the reformatted version?
  - coldtea 11y ago
    Yeah, but just once though, and not to read the article there (obviously). You just saved it to "read it later". So you didn't spend much time in the site, didn't see all the article pages (when they break it in multiple pages), and you sure didn't click any ads.
bsder 11y ago
Translation: "Ad blocking is turning out to be way more popular than we expected, and it's making some rich friends of mine very scared." Even I'm surprised at how popular ad blocking is becoming. I would not have expected the general public to be willing to actually pay money to block ads. Of course, when you have ads that try to take over my browser (Android), won't go away when you hit the "go away" button (iOS), or ads that suddenly play loud audio (both), I guess it's no surprise that even the general public now regards online ads as a nuisance to be blocked. I have to admit, I have uninstalled quite a few apps recently because of offensively-intrusive advertising.
- digi_owl 11y ago
  Welcome to the Streisand effect. While it was extensions for browsers etc, it was one thing. But now Apple (take note) has built it into their most talked about product. And given how the media production and apple products are intertwined, suddenly the media people sit up, take notes, and start talking/writing about it.
  - chillacy 11y ago
    That doesn't sound like the Streisand effect. The Streisand effect would apply if ad networks actively suppressed information about ad blocking technology, sending DMCA takedown requests and threatening providers who host this type of software, which creates such a media buzz that people start picking it up, more because of the suppression than if the ad networks had just ignored it in the first place.
    - digi_owl 11y ago
      The media depend on ads for their revenue, and making noise about how bad it is has made people more aware that they can block ads...
      - chillacy 11y ago
        Eh, I see the relation but it's not exactly it. > The Streisand effect is the phenomenon whereby an attempt to hide, remove, or censor a piece of information has the unintended consequence of publicizing the information more widely, usually facilitated by the Internet [wiki] The streisand effect is about censorship, not about propaganda. If the current coverage is negative, it's a smear campaign at best. Censorship would be refusing to publish any articles on ad blocking entirely and somehow trying to get the apps taken down from the app store.
prawn 11y ago
Other things he could've considered: - changing Peace into a more responsible content-blocker, if that was his concern - giving the proceeds to charity - putting the proceeds towards a new type of ad company, or a new type of new/media business - funding scholarships for journalists
- hraedon 11y ago
  1 is explained in his previous article: he doesn't want to be the arbiter of what is blocked and what is permissible 2 he addresses in the linked piece: which charity? 3: he tried this already with The Magazine and learned that he does not like those challenges 4: this is a bad solution and I'm assuming you offered it as a joke
roflmyeggo 11y ago
The notoriety that this concept has managed to garner in the past 36 hours only secures the fact that a clone app (and however many more) will be made in a short period of time. How much of an effect is removing the app really going to have?
blackoil 11y ago
Do we have any ethical add blocker around. I would love to have an add blocker that disables tracking but allows ads by default, and I as a user should have option to block ads in some sites or block certain ad network i find offensive/creepy/...

92 points by coloneltcb 11y ago

What this is refering to: http://www.marco.org/2015/09/18/just-doesnt-feel-good http://www.marco.org/2015/09/18/just-doesnt-feel-good

tempestn 11y ago

Apparently Marco Arment made an ad-blocking app for iOS called Peace, then after 2 days decided that he didn't want to be in the ad blocking business for ethical reasons and so pulled the app. He explains his reasoning here: http://www.marco.org/2015/09/18/just-doesnt-feel-good http://www.marco.org/2015/09/18/just-doesnt-feel-good In this update, Apple has made the (apparently unprecedented) decision to proactively refund all purchases of the app, rather than requiring users to request refunds individually.

PhasmaFelis 11y ago
There really needs to be some way to pin these "necessary context for understanding the post" comments to the top of the thread. (Other than just upvoting, which as of right now hasn't yet achieved that.)
- lobster_johnson 11y ago
  Afaik, upvoting will only work for a while -- I believe the sorting algorithm uses time as a factor, to allow newer comments to bubble up above higher-rated ones.
- rajacombinator 11y ago
  Additional context needed: is there something new in iOS 9 that makes ad blocking possible?
  - mehrdada 11y ago
    Yes, iOS 9 introduces a new content blocking API making ad blockers in Safari possible: https://developer.apple.com/library/prerelease/ios/releasenotes/General/WhatsNewInSafari/Articles/Safari_9.html https://developer.apple.com/library/prerelease/ios/releaseno...
  - itsmillertime4u 11y ago
    The device has to be a 64-bit CPU though. So if you load iOS 9 on an older iPad or iPhone, then you will not get this feature.
- anon4 11y ago
  Even better - a small "context" link you can hover and get the context right there on the front page.

solutionyogi 11y ago

Wow. That's a real example of putting money where the mouth is. I always felt that he is an opinionated, stand up guy but this move actually proves that he means what he says and he was sincere about his feelings on ad blockers [1]. Much respect. [1] http://www.marco.org/2015/09/18/just-doesnt-feel-good http://www.marco.org/2015/09/18/just-doesnt-feel-good

benologist 11y ago
In the submitted post he says Apple made the decision without consulting him.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- loumf 11y ago
  This makes sense. The App Store is a store and Marco is a wholesaler to the store -- the customer's relationship is with Apple. Stores refund purchases all of the time without talking to their suppliers (or asking permission). Peace uses a block-list that was kept up-to-date on a server -- without it, the app is useless (defective). Apple would be negligent not to refund it immediately.
johnpowell 11y ago
He was a founder in Tumblr. He probably isn't worried about cash.
- ryanSrich 11y ago
  Yep. Pretty easy to put your money where your mouth is when you have gobs of it.
  - idlewords 11y ago
    That's just a pointlessly catty thing to say.

blazespin 11y ago

Surreal. What's wrong with ad blocking? Maybe it would have created a market for micropayments which maybe it's far superior to ads? I know on my MIFI which charges insane amounts for wifi, anything that blocks popup videos or images while maintaining text and formatting is definitely loved by me.

draw_down 11y ago
He explained his decision in a previous post. I think it's more interesting to focus on him as an example of doing something difficult because he felt it was the right thing to do.
- blazespin 11y ago
  His reasoning is unsound. Crippling user experience for some vague, completely unsupported belief that content can't be supported by anything except ads is hugely misguided. Maybe content could be 10x valuable (because much of the noise would be eliminated) if micropayments had a chance to take off. Who knows! Let the market figure it out... For Marco to think he can penetrate the mists of the internet economy single handedly is the height of arrogance.
  - xlm1717 11y ago
    It is hugely misguided. Obviously, there is strong demand for ad-blocking. Someone else will move into this space and serve that demand. He didn't make a statement, he made a headache for all the people who downloaded his app, and for Apple who now has to refund all their purchases.
    - stouset 11y ago
      There is demand for all sorts of products you personally are capable of building, yet wouldn't for reasons of personal ethics. Should we judge you on your failure to bring these to market? After all, if you don't build it someone else will.
  - 11y ago

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

TillE 11y ago

It must have been annoying for them to deal with thousands of refund requests by hand. I was expecting Apple would just bulk-approve refunds for this app, but it's great that they've gone one step further.

rdsnsca 11y ago
Apple handles the refund processes completely.
- wingerlang 11y ago
  He did not imply anything else.

logicallee 11y ago

(In general "which charity" has a simple answer: any. In general donating proceeds immediately solves accusations of self-interest, except perhaps for the component that it's reactionary rather than being announced ahead of time.)

coldtea 11y ago
>In general donating proceeds immediately solves accusations of self-interest Well, you still get the tax deducations, don't you? Plus the goodwill ("here I gave all those to charity") bought with other people's money.
- mikeash 11y ago
  The tax deduction just cancels out the tax liability from receiving that money.

johnpowell 11y ago

Here is what it Apple said regarding my my refund. http://pastebin.com/2zgmekPi http://pastebin.com/2zgmekPi

freehunter 11y ago
Rather interesting that clicking on that link, I see a banner above the content saying "you have an adblocker installed, please pay for our content with cash".
PJones 11y ago
Weird. I'm in the UK, and just chose the 'I want to cancel the order' option. The email confirming my request and the email confirming the refund had been accepted literally arrived in the same minute.
- skrause 11y ago
  The "I want to cancel the order" option is only available in the EU and a few other countries (like Taiwan) for up to 14 days after your purchase, but not in the US.

trollian 11y ago

Are they removing the app from peoples' phones too?

Synaesthesia 11y ago
If you've already bought the app you can use it, not sure if you'll be able to redownload it in future.
ikeboy 11y ago
No. If you back it up, you can keep it forever (but it might stop working on a later version of iOS). See http://ipod.about.com/od/theappstore/a/How-To-Install-Apps-Removed-From-The-App-Store.htm http://ipod.about.com/od/theappstore/a/How-To-Install-Apps-R...

coldtea 11y ago

About this guilt for ad-blocking thing: wasn't Marco's entire fortune (pre Tumblr buyout) made by selling a service used to bypass content owners entirely and read their articles without ads, in one page, and in his own templates?

adiabatty 11y ago
Not really. Instapaper's design was such that you had to look at the site — with all the ads — at least once to save the page to it. This was by design. Instapaper users wouldn't see ads on subsequent pages or on subsequent viewings, though.
- tcbawo 11y ago
  Skipping the cruft of formatting and advertisements was a prime benefit, as I recall. How many users wouldn't immediately jump to the reformatted version?
- coldtea 11y ago
  Yeah, but just once though, and not to read the article there (obviously). You just saved it to "read it later". So you didn't spend much time in the site, didn't see all the article pages (when they break it in multiple pages), and you sure didn't click any ads.

bsder 11y ago

Translation: "Ad blocking is turning out to be way more popular than we expected, and it's making some rich friends of mine very scared." Even I'm surprised at how popular ad blocking is becoming. I would not have expected the general public to be willing to actually pay money to block ads. Of course, when you have ads that try to take over my browser (Android), won't go away when you hit the "go away" button (iOS), or ads that suddenly play loud audio (both), I guess it's no surprise that even the general public now regards online ads as a nuisance to be blocked. I have to admit, I have uninstalled quite a few apps recently because of offensively-intrusive advertising.

digi_owl 11y ago
Welcome to the Streisand effect. While it was extensions for browsers etc, it was one thing. But now Apple (take note) has built it into their most talked about product. And given how the media production and apple products are intertwined, suddenly the media people sit up, take notes, and start talking/writing about it.
- chillacy 11y ago
  That doesn't sound like the Streisand effect. The Streisand effect would apply if ad networks actively suppressed information about ad blocking technology, sending DMCA takedown requests and threatening providers who host this type of software, which creates such a media buzz that people start picking it up, more because of the suppression than if the ad networks had just ignored it in the first place.
  - digi_owl 11y ago
    The media depend on ads for their revenue, and making noise about how bad it is has made people more aware that they can block ads...
    - chillacy 11y ago
      Eh, I see the relation but it's not exactly it. > The Streisand effect is the phenomenon whereby an attempt to hide, remove, or censor a piece of information has the unintended consequence of publicizing the information more widely, usually facilitated by the Internet [wiki] The streisand effect is about censorship, not about propaganda. If the current coverage is negative, it's a smear campaign at best. Censorship would be refusing to publish any articles on ad blocking entirely and somehow trying to get the apps taken down from the app store.

prawn 11y ago

Other things he could've considered: - changing Peace into a more responsible content-blocker, if that was his concern - giving the proceeds to charity - putting the proceeds towards a new type of ad company, or a new type of new/media business - funding scholarships for journalists

hraedon 11y ago
1 is explained in his previous article: he doesn't want to be the arbiter of what is blocked and what is permissible 2 he addresses in the linked piece: which charity? 3: he tried this already with The Magazine and learned that he does not like those challenges 4: this is a bad solution and I'm assuming you offered it as a joke

roflmyeggo 11y ago

The notoriety that this concept has managed to garner in the past 36 hours only secures the fact that a clone app (and however many more) will be made in a short period of time. How much of an effect is removing the app really going to have?

blackoil 11y ago

Do we have any ethical add blocker around. I would love to have an add blocker that disables tracking but allows ads by default, and I as a user should have option to block ads in some sites or block certain ad network i find offensive/creepy/...