4 ms·

I, for one, would be upset as a manager to find out that I had been lied to (and taken advantage of, really). I would have zero qualms about firing someone for

I, for one, would be upset as a manager to find out that I had been lied to (and taken advantage of, really). I would have zero qualms about firing someone for negotiating like this. It's fine to say "Hey, someone else over here thinks I'm worth more, and I'm inclined to agree with them - are you?" It's not fine to say it if it's not true. I'm also not super-impressed with the leveraging of a tough moment in the company to extract more $$. It's not dishonest, although if I were your manager in that situation, I'd be looking for a replacement. My take on this whole idea is this: instead of focusing on how big your balls are, focus on how much value you can bring to the company. Your monetary compensation will reflect that (and actual honest negotiating techniques are recommended).

k__ 11y ago
> focus on how much value you can bring to the company That's the companies view point. You're selling them something and they want the biggest bang for the buck. You want the biggest buck for the bang. Most sums paid in this industry aren't based on working skills, but on negotiation skills. If there are loopholes in the negotiation that enable some of the parties to make false claims to increase their chances, they will use them.
- aggieben 11y ago
  Lying isn't a negotiation tactic or a loophole. It's lying. A negotiation tactic: getting an actual job offer in hand for your salary + X, and then indicating to your manager that you have an offer for $S+X and that you would like to stay where you are if they could match. Lying: not getting a job offer, but tell your manager you did. Also lying: getting a job offer for $S, or $S+0.1X, but telling your manager you got an offer for $S+X.
  - dragonwriter 11y ago
    > Lying isn't a negotiation tactic or a loophole. It's lying. "Lies" and "negotiation tactics" are overlapping sets. There are negotiation tactics that are not lies, and lies that are not negotiation tactics, but just as surely, there are lies that are negotiation tactics. > Lying: not getting a job offer, but tell your manager you did. Sure, that's a lie. And if you tell your manager this as part of a stratagem to get a better compensation deal in your current job, its also a negotiation strategy. It may be an unethical negotiation strategy, but it is certainly a negotiation strategy.
    - aggieben 11y ago
      Fair enough. I guess my point was to be opposed to unethical negotiating strategies.
byoung2 11y ago
It's not fine to say it if it's not true How about the example where the hiring manager says "this is all we can afford to pay for the position" when there are other employees at the company making much more for the same job? Shouldn't the employee feel equally taken advantage of? I was in this situation early in my career where I was told $55k was the highest they could go for this position, that's all they had in the budget, etc. This was a large publicly-traded tech company (at the time, private now). I knew for a fact it was a lie, but I took the job because I needed experience to put on my resume, so I wasn't totally naive. At my 1 year review, I later found out that other developers on my team were making $70-80k, so I used some of the techniques described in the pastebin post to get another offer for $65k, get my employer to match, then I got the other company to beat my employer's match with $70k. I stayed at that company for 3 months and then left to go to a better company for $80k. In this case I was completely honest about my salary, but my company flat out lied about what they could pay. After a year at $80k I switched companies and was able to jump to $110k by exaggerating my salary. I didn't lie about it, but I reported my $80k plus 20% bonus (that I had a good chance of getting), perks such as 401k match, free concert tickets, etc as a "total compensation" of $100k.
- aggieben 11y ago
  If I'm reading you correctly, your argument basically boils down to "but managers/companies lie too". Well, both sides are wrong then. Deals negotiated in bad faith are bad deals, regardless of whose bad faith it is.

k__ 11y ago

> focus on how much value you can bring to the company That's the companies view point. You're selling them something and they want the biggest bang for the buck. You want the biggest buck for the bang. Most sums paid in this industry aren't based on working skills, but on negotiation skills. If there are loopholes in the negotiation that enable some of the parties to make false claims to increase their chances, they will use them.

aggieben 11y ago
Lying isn't a negotiation tactic or a loophole. It's lying. A negotiation tactic: getting an actual job offer in hand for your salary + X, and then indicating to your manager that you have an offer for $S+X and that you would like to stay where you are if they could match. Lying: not getting a job offer, but tell your manager you did. Also lying: getting a job offer for $S, or $S+0.1X, but telling your manager you got an offer for $S+X.
- dragonwriter 11y ago
  > Lying isn't a negotiation tactic or a loophole. It's lying. "Lies" and "negotiation tactics" are overlapping sets. There are negotiation tactics that are not lies, and lies that are not negotiation tactics, but just as surely, there are lies that are negotiation tactics. > Lying: not getting a job offer, but tell your manager you did. Sure, that's a lie. And if you tell your manager this as part of a stratagem to get a better compensation deal in your current job, its also a negotiation strategy. It may be an unethical negotiation strategy, but it is certainly a negotiation strategy.
  - aggieben 11y ago
    Fair enough. I guess my point was to be opposed to unethical negotiating strategies.

byoung2 11y ago

It's not fine to say it if it's not true How about the example where the hiring manager says "this is all we can afford to pay for the position" when there are other employees at the company making much more for the same job? Shouldn't the employee feel equally taken advantage of? I was in this situation early in my career where I was told $55k was the highest they could go for this position, that's all they had in the budget, etc. This was a large publicly-traded tech company (at the time, private now). I knew for a fact it was a lie, but I took the job because I needed experience to put on my resume, so I wasn't totally naive. At my 1 year review, I later found out that other developers on my team were making $70-80k, so I used some of the techniques described in the pastebin post to get another offer for $65k, get my employer to match, then I got the other company to beat my employer's match with $70k. I stayed at that company for 3 months and then left to go to a better company for $80k. In this case I was completely honest about my salary, but my company flat out lied about what they could pay. After a year at $80k I switched companies and was able to jump to $110k by exaggerating my salary. I didn't lie about it, but I reported my $80k plus 20% bonus (that I had a good chance of getting), perks such as 401k match, free concert tickets, etc as a "total compensation" of $100k.

aggieben 11y ago
If I'm reading you correctly, your argument basically boils down to "but managers/companies lie too". Well, both sides are wrong then. Deals negotiated in bad faith are bad deals, regardless of whose bad faith it is.