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I looked a bit into this and it seems strange that this happened only now. Consider this [1] 2014 study (scroll to last page of executive summary, page 5). Bas

by yread 11y ago

I looked a bit into this and it seems strange that this happened only now. Consider this [1] 2014 study (scroll to last page of executive summary, page 5). Basically they tested 15 vehicles from 6 manufacturers for emissions while on the road and NONE OF THEM passed the euro 6 average (!) limit. 1 was exactly on the limit, the worst one emitted on average 24 times more than the norm. They noted the vehicles emit more when driving uphill. Then there is this article [2] from 2014 which says the emissions in city traffic are 3 times the norm. In 2013 this study [3] was published which measured diesel NO2 emissions and found out that Euro 5 class vehicles have exactly the same emissions as Euro 2 (from 1992) cars. [1] http://www.theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/ICCT_PEMS-study_diesel-cars_20141013.pdf http://www.theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/ICCT... [2] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/10862975/Emission-tests-substantially-underestimate-pollution-pumped-out-by-diesels.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/10862975/Emission-t... [3] http://uk-air.defra.gov.uk/assets/documents/reports/cat05/1307161149_130715_DefraRemoteSensingReport_Final.pdf http://uk-air.defra.gov.uk/assets/documents/reports/cat05/13...

mironathetin 11y ago
Would that mean emission limits are set lower than technically achievable? Car manufacturers still provide more powerful cars every year. I always wondered, how they can claim their engines emit less while they get faster and faster. Everybody knows that a modern car does not consume so much less fuel than a car of then comparable standard 20 years ago. But lets face it, consumers require more power, less fuel consumption and less emission - in this order. Probably the development of on paper values has been disconnected from the real world for marketing reasons (that is no excuse, its an observation). Before everybody throws stones at Volkswagen only, please measure other cars (again, no excuse). From time to time I rent cars of different brands and at the gas station I see proof that there has been little progress in fuel efficiency. That said, Volkswagen and Audi diesels seem to be the most fuel efficient engines around for the pure power they deliver. The only diesel I know that felt more advanced was a Volvo V60, but mostly because of a geniously constructed gear system and a perfectly rectangular torque (so I had to change gears at 3500 rpm). In Europe (and that means in this case in Germany), car manufacturers invented the fleet consumption and emission. That means, the consumption and emission of a whole class of cars is averaged. This is to trick high powered engines on paper into an acceptable consumption and emission range. The goal is clearly not transparency and openness.
- jonknee 11y ago
  > Everybody knows that a modern car does not consume so much less fuel than a car of then comparable standard 20 years ago. Actually a modern car does consume a lot less fuel than models from 20 years ago. CAFE standards have had a great effect. http://www.rita.dot.gov/bts/sites/rita.dot.gov.bts/files/publications/national_transportation_statistics/html/table_04_23.html http://www.rita.dot.gov/bts/sites/rita.dot.gov.bts/files/pub... For a new passenger car the average MPG in 1995 was 28.6 and in 2013 (latest available data for that report) was 36 MPG. That's a 25% increase which when multiplied across millions of vehicles is an enormous amount of fuel.
  - mhb 11y ago
    It's a 20.6% decrease in gallons per mile.
    - kazinator 11y ago
      That is misleading. We should calculate percentage improvements against the better value. Fewer gallons per mile is better. For instance, if you cut in half the gallons per mile, it only looks like a 50% decrease. But it's actually a doubling of the mileage: you go twice as far on a tank of gas. The improvement in gallons per mile is 100%. Using something other than mileage: suppose you optimize a program so it takes half the time to run. It's running twice as fast: it is 100% faster. Looking at it as a mere 50% reduction of time can be misleading. If you calculate the speedup using the running time, you have to divide the time difference by the smaller, better running time: 100 x (Tpoor - Timproved) / Timproved. The main problem with the "percent reduction" is that arbitrarily good improvements only approach 100%. If we make a car go a million times longer on a gallon of gas, it's only around a 99.9999 reduction in gallons per mile, which looks only about twice as good as a 50% reduction. :)
      - mhb 11y ago
        Suppose you're going on a 100 mile trip and you want to know how much better off you are if you replace your 50 mpg car with a 100 mpg car. You now only need 1 gallon of gas instead of 2. Even if the car can run without gas, you aren't any better off than a savings of 2 gallons for the trip. You're not > million times better off.
late2part 11y ago
Do you ever get the feeling that everything is rigged and corrupt? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuuCezrAUKk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuuCezrAUKk "Everybody Knows" - by Leonard Cohen: Everybody knows that the dice are loaded Everybody rolls with their fingers crossed Everybody knows that the war is over Everybody knows the good guys lost Everybody knows the fight was fixed The poor stay poor, the rich get rich That's how it goes Everybody knows Everybody knows that the boat is leaking Everybody knows that the captain lied Everybody got this broken feeling Like their father or their dog just died
superuser2 11y ago
I suspect "everybody" is doing this, and individual manufacturers can't opt out or they'll be producing slower, less fuel-efficient, more expensive cars that will fail in the market. Without the proof and clout to stand up and accuse all your competition of cheating and win, it's easy to see how some might feel they have no choice.
- spullara 11y ago
  Tesla is definitely not doing this.
  - superuser2 11y ago
    Well, yes, electric cars are obviously a different game.

by yread 11y ago

mironathetin 11y ago

Would that mean emission limits are set lower than technically achievable? Car manufacturers still provide more powerful cars every year. I always wondered, how they can claim their engines emit less while they get faster and faster. Everybody knows that a modern car does not consume so much less fuel than a car of then comparable standard 20 years ago. But lets face it, consumers require more power, less fuel consumption and less emission - in this order. Probably the development of on paper values has been disconnected from the real world for marketing reasons (that is no excuse, its an observation). Before everybody throws stones at Volkswagen only, please measure other cars (again, no excuse). From time to time I rent cars of different brands and at the gas station I see proof that there has been little progress in fuel efficiency. That said, Volkswagen and Audi diesels seem to be the most fuel efficient engines around for the pure power they deliver. The only diesel I know that felt more advanced was a Volvo V60, but mostly because of a geniously constructed gear system and a perfectly rectangular torque (so I had to change gears at 3500 rpm). In Europe (and that means in this case in Germany), car manufacturers invented the fleet consumption and emission. That means, the consumption and emission of a whole class of cars is averaged. This is to trick high powered engines on paper into an acceptable consumption and emission range. The goal is clearly not transparency and openness.

jonknee 11y ago
> Everybody knows that a modern car does not consume so much less fuel than a car of then comparable standard 20 years ago. Actually a modern car does consume a lot less fuel than models from 20 years ago. CAFE standards have had a great effect. http://www.rita.dot.gov/bts/sites/rita.dot.gov.bts/files/publications/national_transportation_statistics/html/table_04_23.html http://www.rita.dot.gov/bts/sites/rita.dot.gov.bts/files/pub... For a new passenger car the average MPG in 1995 was 28.6 and in 2013 (latest available data for that report) was 36 MPG. That's a 25% increase which when multiplied across millions of vehicles is an enormous amount of fuel.
- mhb 11y ago
  It's a 20.6% decrease in gallons per mile.
  - kazinator 11y ago
    That is misleading. We should calculate percentage improvements against the better value. Fewer gallons per mile is better. For instance, if you cut in half the gallons per mile, it only looks like a 50% decrease. But it's actually a doubling of the mileage: you go twice as far on a tank of gas. The improvement in gallons per mile is 100%. Using something other than mileage: suppose you optimize a program so it takes half the time to run. It's running twice as fast: it is 100% faster. Looking at it as a mere 50% reduction of time can be misleading. If you calculate the speedup using the running time, you have to divide the time difference by the smaller, better running time: 100 x (Tpoor - Timproved) / Timproved. The main problem with the "percent reduction" is that arbitrarily good improvements only approach 100%. If we make a car go a million times longer on a gallon of gas, it's only around a 99.9999 reduction in gallons per mile, which looks only about twice as good as a 50% reduction. :)
    - mhb 11y ago
      Suppose you're going on a 100 mile trip and you want to know how much better off you are if you replace your 50 mpg car with a 100 mpg car. You now only need 1 gallon of gas instead of 2. Even if the car can run without gas, you aren't any better off than a savings of 2 gallons for the trip. You're not > million times better off.

late2part 11y ago

Do you ever get the feeling that everything is rigged and corrupt? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuuCezrAUKk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuuCezrAUKk "Everybody Knows" - by Leonard Cohen: Everybody knows that the dice are loaded Everybody rolls with their fingers crossed Everybody knows that the war is over Everybody knows the good guys lost Everybody knows the fight was fixed The poor stay poor, the rich get rich That's how it goes Everybody knows Everybody knows that the boat is leaking Everybody knows that the captain lied Everybody got this broken feeling Like their father or their dog just died

superuser2 11y ago

I suspect "everybody" is doing this, and individual manufacturers can't opt out or they'll be producing slower, less fuel-efficient, more expensive cars that will fail in the market. Without the proof and clout to stand up and accuse all your competition of cheating and win, it's easy to see how some might feel they have no choice.

spullara 11y ago
Tesla is definitely not doing this.
- superuser2 11y ago
  Well, yes, electric cars are obviously a different game.