5 ms·

Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations

20 points by andyjpb 11y ago

kls 11y ago
So this guy goes on to repeat the cycle on his new employee. Me personally, I am a fan of the golden handcuffs approach to a limited pool of talent. It allows a company to focus more on critical business efforts and less on internal profits via penny pinching, wasting business cycles on needless spends of time and energy. Optimizing every last dollar, over chasing revenue, is best left to companies that are stagnant or in decline. The problem is, with that employee that would never ask for a raise, is that once he decides he wants more money, mentally he will already be out of your company. Those are the kind that don't look back. When he looks he will be serious about leaving.
- charlesdm 11y ago
  This sounds like a guy making idle threats. "I have an offer for $X !!!!!!" - but it doesn't really seem he's interested in leaving. Honestly, for 5 years of raises, he didn't negotiate well. If he negotiated more aggressively, he probably could've gotten up to 200k at this point, since he was promoted to be one of the key technical people. One key thing he didn't do was negotiate the new job offer well. If they offer you $75k at a new job, you need to push them up to 85k-90k. Once you have that, you go to your current boss and negotiate it up to $100-115k. By not countering, he lost one of the major advantages of finding a secondary offer. Yes, it's better than not having something to fall back on, but he left 50% (or more) on the table. It's like asking for a discount, and getting 2%. That's ridiculous. If they're willing to give you 2%, they can give you 10-20% as well.
jxm262 11y ago
I think this was mentioned a few days ago. had a big discussion around it - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10233831 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10233831
anoother 11y ago
'Totally honest', as in, lie through your teeth, repeatedly?
- it_luddite 11y ago
  It's not lying if you're careful how you respond to their question on salary. I always respond with my compensation is $X, where X is my previous year's salary, bonus, and cash value of PTO and other benefits.
  - charlesdm 11y ago
    But he was lying. That's different. What you're making is irrelevant, and if it is for them (i.e. the company you're interviewing at is making an actual problem of not knowing), then you don't want to work there. What you're looking to make is much more relevant.
- hoppi 11y ago
  'Totally honest' about lying and what was done to achieve a higher salary.
- erikb 11y ago
  It's not really lying to make the numbers look bigger. It's what everybody does. The guy on the other side of the table will also tell you believable smaller numbers than what he really has in his spreadsheets.
  - fiatjaf 11y ago
    So if everybody lies it is not lies anymore. Interesting.
    - erikb 11y ago
      Look, if you make $73,327.54/year do you say you make $73,327.54/year or do you say you make $75k/year?
erikb 11y ago
Yeah, a lot of the money comes in by simply saying to many people "I'm worth that money". And the key ingredients to bargaining are having another offer (= being able to walk) and knowing the market a little (=talking to other companies, reading texts like this one), and the third is to talk to your manager. The worst thing that can happen is that he says no. But even then you are better set up for the same talk the next time. Saying no a few times is also hard for the manager.
- x5n1 11y ago
  You also actually have to be worth it.
  - erikb 11y ago
    Is anybody really worth >=$150k/year?
    - charlesdm 11y ago
      Yes. If you make or save the company more than a multiple of that, you're worth $150k.
    - cweagans 11y ago
      I won't speak for others, but at a previous company, I almost singlehandedly carried a single project to completion that brought in over a million dollars in a single calendar year. Some of that obviously goes to company overhead (offices, administrative roles, etc), but let's be extremely generous and say HALF of that is overhead. $150k/year is peanuts compared to the cost of having a valuable person leave your company during a large project.
fiatjaf 11y ago
It is below the human condition to ever work for a salary.
aggieben 11y ago
I, for one, would be upset as a manager to find out that I had been lied to (and taken advantage of, really). I would have zero qualms about firing someone for negotiating like this. It's fine to say "Hey, someone else over here thinks I'm worth more, and I'm inclined to agree with them - are you?" It's not fine to say it if it's not true. I'm also not super-impressed with the leveraging of a tough moment in the company to extract more $$. It's not dishonest, although if I were your manager in that situation, I'd be looking for a replacement. My take on this whole idea is this: instead of focusing on how big your balls are, focus on how much value you can bring to the company. Your monetary compensation will reflect that (and actual honest negotiating techniques are recommended).
- k__ 11y ago
  > focus on how much value you can bring to the company That's the companies view point. You're selling them something and they want the biggest bang for the buck. You want the biggest buck for the bang. Most sums paid in this industry aren't based on working skills, but on negotiation skills. If there are loopholes in the negotiation that enable some of the parties to make false claims to increase their chances, they will use them.
  - aggieben 11y ago
    Lying isn't a negotiation tactic or a loophole. It's lying. A negotiation tactic: getting an actual job offer in hand for your salary + X, and then indicating to your manager that you have an offer for $S+X and that you would like to stay where you are if they could match. Lying: not getting a job offer, but tell your manager you did. Also lying: getting a job offer for $S, or $S+0.1X, but telling your manager you got an offer for $S+X.
    - dragonwriter 11y ago
      > Lying isn't a negotiation tactic or a loophole. It's lying. "Lies" and "negotiation tactics" are overlapping sets. There are negotiation tactics that are not lies, and lies that are not negotiation tactics, but just as surely, there are lies that are negotiation tactics. > Lying: not getting a job offer, but tell your manager you did. Sure, that's a lie. And if you tell your manager this as part of a stratagem to get a better compensation deal in your current job, its also a negotiation strategy. It may be an unethical negotiation strategy, but it is certainly a negotiation strategy.

20 points by andyjpb 11y ago

kls 11y ago

So this guy goes on to repeat the cycle on his new employee. Me personally, I am a fan of the golden handcuffs approach to a limited pool of talent. It allows a company to focus more on critical business efforts and less on internal profits via penny pinching, wasting business cycles on needless spends of time and energy. Optimizing every last dollar, over chasing revenue, is best left to companies that are stagnant or in decline. The problem is, with that employee that would never ask for a raise, is that once he decides he wants more money, mentally he will already be out of your company. Those are the kind that don't look back. When he looks he will be serious about leaving.

charlesdm 11y ago
This sounds like a guy making idle threats. "I have an offer for $X !!!!!!" - but it doesn't really seem he's interested in leaving. Honestly, for 5 years of raises, he didn't negotiate well. If he negotiated more aggressively, he probably could've gotten up to 200k at this point, since he was promoted to be one of the key technical people. One key thing he didn't do was negotiate the new job offer well. If they offer you $75k at a new job, you need to push them up to 85k-90k. Once you have that, you go to your current boss and negotiate it up to $100-115k. By not countering, he lost one of the major advantages of finding a secondary offer. Yes, it's better than not having something to fall back on, but he left 50% (or more) on the table. It's like asking for a discount, and getting 2%. That's ridiculous. If they're willing to give you 2%, they can give you 10-20% as well.

jxm262 11y ago

I think this was mentioned a few days ago. had a big discussion around it - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10233831 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10233831

anoother 11y ago

'Totally honest', as in, lie through your teeth, repeatedly?

it_luddite 11y ago
It's not lying if you're careful how you respond to their question on salary. I always respond with my compensation is $X, where X is my previous year's salary, bonus, and cash value of PTO and other benefits.
- charlesdm 11y ago
  But he was lying. That's different. What you're making is irrelevant, and if it is for them (i.e. the company you're interviewing at is making an actual problem of not knowing), then you don't want to work there. What you're looking to make is much more relevant.
hoppi 11y ago
'Totally honest' about lying and what was done to achieve a higher salary.
erikb 11y ago
It's not really lying to make the numbers look bigger. It's what everybody does. The guy on the other side of the table will also tell you believable smaller numbers than what he really has in his spreadsheets.
- fiatjaf 11y ago
  So if everybody lies it is not lies anymore. Interesting.
  - erikb 11y ago
    Look, if you make $73,327.54/year do you say you make $73,327.54/year or do you say you make $75k/year?

erikb 11y ago

Yeah, a lot of the money comes in by simply saying to many people "I'm worth that money". And the key ingredients to bargaining are having another offer (= being able to walk) and knowing the market a little (=talking to other companies, reading texts like this one), and the third is to talk to your manager. The worst thing that can happen is that he says no. But even then you are better set up for the same talk the next time. Saying no a few times is also hard for the manager.

x5n1 11y ago
You also actually have to be worth it.
- erikb 11y ago
  Is anybody really worth >=$150k/year?
  - charlesdm 11y ago
    Yes. If you make or save the company more than a multiple of that, you're worth $150k.
  - cweagans 11y ago
    I won't speak for others, but at a previous company, I almost singlehandedly carried a single project to completion that brought in over a million dollars in a single calendar year. Some of that obviously goes to company overhead (offices, administrative roles, etc), but let's be extremely generous and say HALF of that is overhead. $150k/year is peanuts compared to the cost of having a valuable person leave your company during a large project.

fiatjaf 11y ago

It is below the human condition to ever work for a salary.

aggieben 11y ago

I, for one, would be upset as a manager to find out that I had been lied to (and taken advantage of, really). I would have zero qualms about firing someone for negotiating like this. It's fine to say "Hey, someone else over here thinks I'm worth more, and I'm inclined to agree with them - are you?" It's not fine to say it if it's not true. I'm also not super-impressed with the leveraging of a tough moment in the company to extract more $$. It's not dishonest, although if I were your manager in that situation, I'd be looking for a replacement. My take on this whole idea is this: instead of focusing on how big your balls are, focus on how much value you can bring to the company. Your monetary compensation will reflect that (and actual honest negotiating techniques are recommended).

k__ 11y ago
> focus on how much value you can bring to the company That's the companies view point. You're selling them something and they want the biggest bang for the buck. You want the biggest buck for the bang. Most sums paid in this industry aren't based on working skills, but on negotiation skills. If there are loopholes in the negotiation that enable some of the parties to make false claims to increase their chances, they will use them.
- aggieben 11y ago
  Lying isn't a negotiation tactic or a loophole. It's lying. A negotiation tactic: getting an actual job offer in hand for your salary + X, and then indicating to your manager that you have an offer for $S+X and that you would like to stay where you are if they could match. Lying: not getting a job offer, but tell your manager you did. Also lying: getting a job offer for $S, or $S+0.1X, but telling your manager you got an offer for $S+X.
  - dragonwriter 11y ago
    > Lying isn't a negotiation tactic or a loophole. It's lying. "Lies" and "negotiation tactics" are overlapping sets. There are negotiation tactics that are not lies, and lies that are not negotiation tactics, but just as surely, there are lies that are negotiation tactics. > Lying: not getting a job offer, but tell your manager you did. Sure, that's a lie. And if you tell your manager this as part of a stratagem to get a better compensation deal in your current job, its also a negotiation strategy. It may be an unethical negotiation strategy, but it is certainly a negotiation strategy.