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Four days ago, GM was fined $900 million for a known defect that killed over 100 people. If the VW fine exceeds that, something is clearly out-of-line with corp

by QUFB 11y ago

Four days ago, GM was fined $900 million for a known defect that killed over 100 people. If the VW fine exceeds that, something is clearly out-of-line with corporate prosecutions in the US.

onewaystreet 11y ago
From another article: > The maximum Clean Air Act violation is $37,500 per vehicle, meaning Volkswagen's fine could technically be as high as $18 billion.
- cweagans 11y ago
  Ha, that's more than some of the cars they sold. More than my Jetta TDI, at least.
  - cweagans 11y ago
    On a slightly unrelated note, I'm scratching my head trying to figure out what could have possible warranted a downvote there.
    - nitrogen 11y ago
      Sometimes comments will be downvoted if the downvoter doesn't think the comment adds much new info to the conversation.
    - o_nate 11y ago
      Some people have a bit of an itchy trigger-finger with down votes. I wouldn't waste my time worrying about it.
duncan_bayne 11y ago
Only if you assume that actual harm to human beings trumps harm to the 'environment'. I'd argue it doesn't, at least not as far as the EPA is concerned.
- 7952 11y ago
  Harm to the environment is harm to humans. Especially when you are talking about carcinogenic diesal exhaust.
  - duncan_bayne 11y ago
    Sure. And in fact, such blanket environmental legislation ought to be supported by Objectivists like myself. Even Rand agreed that collective legislation is appropriate to collective problems. But my point was that, for environmentalists, harm to 'the environment' actually outweighs measurable harm to humans. Hence activities that provably killed a bunch of people are likely to merit a less stringent penalty that those likely in this case.
- GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
  I don't know where you live, but as for me I live in a house right next to the environment.
  - duncan_bayne 11y ago
    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/trump https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/trump "(transitive) To supersede. In this election, it would seem issues of national security trumped economic issues." In other words, concerns about the environment trump concerns about actual human harm, at least according to mainstream environmentalists.
x5n1 11y ago
US loves prosecuting foreign companies. Not so much local companies. So sure they could go after Volkswagen, what do they have to lose?
- barking 11y ago
  If it perceived unfairness I'd imagine that VW would lobby the German government. And it turns out, amazingly often, that the EU discovers that what's in Germany's interest is in its interest too! We could end up with the EU crying foul and threatening retaliation against American companies here.
  - davidiach 11y ago
    The EU is already going after US Tech companies like Google, Microsoft, Uber etc.
- dougb 11y ago
  What about VW going after the US through the TPP ? From http://www.dailydot.com/politics/tpp-leaked-investment-chapter-isds/ http://www.dailydot.com/politics/tpp-leaked-investment-chapt... > Corporations may be granted through “Investor-State Dispute Settlement” (ISDS) tribunals the authority to demand taxpayer compensation for domestic energy, health, environment, land use, and other policies. With the exception of Australia, all of the countries involved in the TPP talks have agreed to submit to the jurisdiction of ISDS tribunals. *edited to format the quote. Giving up.
  - x5n1 11y ago
    Corporations bite back?
- jonknee 11y ago
  They did just finish getting a criminal settlement and $900,000,000 fine out of GM...
jedrek 11y ago
Air pollution kills people. Especially poor people who can't afford health care and can't afford to move to places where four thousand cars an hour pass under their window, day in, day out.
- JimmaDaRustla 11y ago
  There have been zero reports, that I'm aware of, that any of these cars would have failed the emissions test without the "defeat device". Still waiting to hear. Edit: Easy guys, in Canada there is no known impact yet as it is being investigated. I forgot I was on the internet where everyone keeps their pitchforks in their back pocket. http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/volkswagen-emissions-rigging-1.3236548 http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/volkswagen-emissions-rigging... We do ACTUAL emissions tests in Canada (Ontario at least) - it sounds like USA is different in how it works (probably differs by state?), but we have machines to actually grade pollution. The 2009 model VWs will be emissiosn tested this year as they are 7 years old, so why this hasn't been news yet in Canada is very interesting, which is why I say I'm waiting to hear how all of these cars fair in upcoming tests. http://www.ontario.ca/page/drive-clean http://www.ontario.ca/page/drive-clean Edit 2: I'm wrong, we don't do tailpipe emissions test on cars newer than 1998! So the defeat device is the exact reason why I hadn't heard about any vehicles actually failing emissions testing here.
  - JoeAltmaier 11y ago
    What have you been drinking? Why have a 'defeat device' if it doesn't do anything? Of course they would fail, spectacularly, without the device. That's the entire point. The estimate is, CO emissions are reduce 40X to pass the test. Meaning, the cars are 40 times too dirty to be on our roads.
    - JimmaDaRustla 11y ago
      In Canada, we used to only ever do tailpipe tests, meaning a defeat device wouldn't be able to fool the testing. Apparently I'm wrong though - turns out Canada doesn't do tailpipe tests on cars newer than 1998 (this is news to me), meaning the defeat device is the exact reason why I hadn't heard about any cases of cars failing the emissions test.
mrj 11y ago
Diesel exhaust is known to cause cancer. I have one of these cars in my driveway that they lied about.
- emcrazyone 11y ago
  Curious, are you going to return the vehicle for any recall notices? You realize once they "fix" the emissions issue, the performance of the car is probably going to tank. I have to imagine you will no longer realize the ratings as advertised on the Monroney sticker? I was thinking to myself, I would avoid the recall but then I think there is fine print that states the OEM must be able to service your vehicle to maintain said warranty. Interesting pickle. How stupid VW is.
  - thrownaway2424 11y ago
    In California it will be unavoidable due to CARB-DMV coordination. If your vehicle hasn't been fixed they won't allow you to register it.
  - mizzao 11y ago
    I imagine a lot of customers will avoid getting the "fix" in order to maintain the performance of their cars. There's not much that they can do to force these people to bring their cars back.
    - emcrazyone 11y ago
      tend to agree. In Michigan, there are no laws requiring owners to pass an emissions test. There use to be in the 80s but they were dissolved in the late 80s. I believe states like California still have them and I know, at least, Illinois has them. In Illinois, it's a simple matter of a test center pulling data from the ODB2 port.
    - nullc 11y ago
      > There's not much that they can do to force these people to bring their cars back. Uh. In any place with emissions tests I presume these things will instantly fail without the upgrade, so you won't be able to preserve your registration without it.
Shivetya 11y ago
Well Toyota got fined 1.2 billion for something that turned out to be user error if that. As in, they were penalized for not cooperating fast enough for the government. I do think GM got off way too lightly. The VW issue here in no way compares, trying to claim that air pollution from these cars might have caused deaths is absurd when looking at what GM did and continue to do so after their rescue. that being said, having owned both a 2010 TDI Golf and 2013 TDI Beetle that I enjoyed for the duration and returned very good mileage numbers I still want VW to be fined a substantial amount and forced to keep a stop sale until they can prove the code is no longer in a car waiting delivery to a dealer.
jeromeflipo 11y ago
"NOx pollution contributes to nitrogen dioxide, ground-level ozone, and fine particulate matter. Exposure to these pollutants has been linked with a range of serious health effects, including increased asthma attacks and other respiratory illnesses that can be serious enough to send people to the hospital. Exposure to ozone and particulate matter have also been associated with premature death due to respiratory-related or cardiovascular-related effects. Children, the elderly, and people with pre-existing respiratory disease are particularly at risk for health effects of these pollutants. VW may be liable for civil penalties and injunctive relief for the violations alleged in the NOV." http://yosemite.epa.gov/opa/admpress.nsf/21b8983ffa5d0e4685257dd4006b85e2/dfc8e33b5ab162b985257ec40057813b!OpenDocument http://yosemite.epa.gov/opa/admpress.nsf/21b8983ffa5d0e46852... More about health effects of NO2 exposure: http://www3.epa.gov/airquality/nitrogenoxides/health.html http://www3.epa.gov/airquality/nitrogenoxides/health.html
smackfu 11y ago
Not quite, GM was fined $35 million in 2014 by the NHTSA for the ignition defect, which was the maximum fine allowed. They recently settled a federal criminal complaint for $900 million. They also had a thousand civil suits which are estimated to cost around $1.2 billion to settle.

by QUFB 11y ago

Four days ago, GM was fined $900 million for a known defect that killed over 100 people. If the VW fine exceeds that, something is clearly out-of-line with corporate prosecutions in the US.

onewaystreet 11y ago

From another article: > The maximum Clean Air Act violation is $37,500 per vehicle, meaning Volkswagen's fine could technically be as high as $18 billion.

cweagans 11y ago
Ha, that's more than some of the cars they sold. More than my Jetta TDI, at least.
- cweagans 11y ago
  On a slightly unrelated note, I'm scratching my head trying to figure out what could have possible warranted a downvote there.
  - nitrogen 11y ago
    Sometimes comments will be downvoted if the downvoter doesn't think the comment adds much new info to the conversation.
  - o_nate 11y ago
    Some people have a bit of an itchy trigger-finger with down votes. I wouldn't waste my time worrying about it.

duncan_bayne 11y ago

Only if you assume that actual harm to human beings trumps harm to the 'environment'. I'd argue it doesn't, at least not as far as the EPA is concerned.

7952 11y ago
Harm to the environment is harm to humans. Especially when you are talking about carcinogenic diesal exhaust.
- duncan_bayne 11y ago
  Sure. And in fact, such blanket environmental legislation ought to be supported by Objectivists like myself. Even Rand agreed that collective legislation is appropriate to collective problems. But my point was that, for environmentalists, harm to 'the environment' actually outweighs measurable harm to humans. Hence activities that provably killed a bunch of people are likely to merit a less stringent penalty that those likely in this case.
GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
I don't know where you live, but as for me I live in a house right next to the environment.
- duncan_bayne 11y ago
  https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/trump https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/trump "(transitive) To supersede. In this election, it would seem issues of national security trumped economic issues." In other words, concerns about the environment trump concerns about actual human harm, at least according to mainstream environmentalists.

x5n1 11y ago

US loves prosecuting foreign companies. Not so much local companies. So sure they could go after Volkswagen, what do they have to lose?

barking 11y ago
If it perceived unfairness I'd imagine that VW would lobby the German government. And it turns out, amazingly often, that the EU discovers that what's in Germany's interest is in its interest too! We could end up with the EU crying foul and threatening retaliation against American companies here.
- davidiach 11y ago
  The EU is already going after US Tech companies like Google, Microsoft, Uber etc.
dougb 11y ago
What about VW going after the US through the TPP ? From http://www.dailydot.com/politics/tpp-leaked-investment-chapter-isds/ http://www.dailydot.com/politics/tpp-leaked-investment-chapt... > Corporations may be granted through “Investor-State Dispute Settlement” (ISDS) tribunals the authority to demand taxpayer compensation for domestic energy, health, environment, land use, and other policies. With the exception of Australia, all of the countries involved in the TPP talks have agreed to submit to the jurisdiction of ISDS tribunals. *edited to format the quote. Giving up.
- x5n1 11y ago
  Corporations bite back?
jonknee 11y ago
They did just finish getting a criminal settlement and $900,000,000 fine out of GM...

jedrek 11y ago

Air pollution kills people. Especially poor people who can't afford health care and can't afford to move to places where four thousand cars an hour pass under their window, day in, day out.

JimmaDaRustla 11y ago
There have been zero reports, that I'm aware of, that any of these cars would have failed the emissions test without the "defeat device". Still waiting to hear. Edit: Easy guys, in Canada there is no known impact yet as it is being investigated. I forgot I was on the internet where everyone keeps their pitchforks in their back pocket. http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/volkswagen-emissions-rigging-1.3236548 http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/volkswagen-emissions-rigging... We do ACTUAL emissions tests in Canada (Ontario at least) - it sounds like USA is different in how it works (probably differs by state?), but we have machines to actually grade pollution. The 2009 model VWs will be emissiosn tested this year as they are 7 years old, so why this hasn't been news yet in Canada is very interesting, which is why I say I'm waiting to hear how all of these cars fair in upcoming tests. http://www.ontario.ca/page/drive-clean http://www.ontario.ca/page/drive-clean Edit 2: I'm wrong, we don't do tailpipe emissions test on cars newer than 1998! So the defeat device is the exact reason why I hadn't heard about any vehicles actually failing emissions testing here.
- JoeAltmaier 11y ago
  What have you been drinking? Why have a 'defeat device' if it doesn't do anything? Of course they would fail, spectacularly, without the device. That's the entire point. The estimate is, CO emissions are reduce 40X to pass the test. Meaning, the cars are 40 times too dirty to be on our roads.
  - JimmaDaRustla 11y ago
    In Canada, we used to only ever do tailpipe tests, meaning a defeat device wouldn't be able to fool the testing. Apparently I'm wrong though - turns out Canada doesn't do tailpipe tests on cars newer than 1998 (this is news to me), meaning the defeat device is the exact reason why I hadn't heard about any cases of cars failing the emissions test.

mrj 11y ago

Diesel exhaust is known to cause cancer. I have one of these cars in my driveway that they lied about.

emcrazyone 11y ago
Curious, are you going to return the vehicle for any recall notices? You realize once they "fix" the emissions issue, the performance of the car is probably going to tank. I have to imagine you will no longer realize the ratings as advertised on the Monroney sticker? I was thinking to myself, I would avoid the recall but then I think there is fine print that states the OEM must be able to service your vehicle to maintain said warranty. Interesting pickle. How stupid VW is.
- thrownaway2424 11y ago
  In California it will be unavoidable due to CARB-DMV coordination. If your vehicle hasn't been fixed they won't allow you to register it.
- mizzao 11y ago
  I imagine a lot of customers will avoid getting the "fix" in order to maintain the performance of their cars. There's not much that they can do to force these people to bring their cars back.
  - emcrazyone 11y ago
    tend to agree. In Michigan, there are no laws requiring owners to pass an emissions test. There use to be in the 80s but they were dissolved in the late 80s. I believe states like California still have them and I know, at least, Illinois has them. In Illinois, it's a simple matter of a test center pulling data from the ODB2 port.
  - nullc 11y ago
    > There's not much that they can do to force these people to bring their cars back. Uh. In any place with emissions tests I presume these things will instantly fail without the upgrade, so you won't be able to preserve your registration without it.

Shivetya 11y ago

Well Toyota got fined 1.2 billion for something that turned out to be user error if that. As in, they were penalized for not cooperating fast enough for the government. I do think GM got off way too lightly. The VW issue here in no way compares, trying to claim that air pollution from these cars might have caused deaths is absurd when looking at what GM did and continue to do so after their rescue. that being said, having owned both a 2010 TDI Golf and 2013 TDI Beetle that I enjoyed for the duration and returned very good mileage numbers I still want VW to be fined a substantial amount and forced to keep a stop sale until they can prove the code is no longer in a car waiting delivery to a dealer.

jeromeflipo 11y ago

"NOx pollution contributes to nitrogen dioxide, ground-level ozone, and fine particulate matter. Exposure to these pollutants has been linked with a range of serious health effects, including increased asthma attacks and other respiratory illnesses that can be serious enough to send people to the hospital. Exposure to ozone and particulate matter have also been associated with premature death due to respiratory-related or cardiovascular-related effects. Children, the elderly, and people with pre-existing respiratory disease are particularly at risk for health effects of these pollutants. VW may be liable for civil penalties and injunctive relief for the violations alleged in the NOV." http://yosemite.epa.gov/opa/admpress.nsf/21b8983ffa5d0e4685257dd4006b85e2/dfc8e33b5ab162b985257ec40057813b!OpenDocument http://yosemite.epa.gov/opa/admpress.nsf/21b8983ffa5d0e46852... More about health effects of NO2 exposure: http://www3.epa.gov/airquality/nitrogenoxides/health.html http://www3.epa.gov/airquality/nitrogenoxides/health.html

smackfu 11y ago

Not quite, GM was fined $35 million in 2014 by the NHTSA for the ignition defect, which was the maximum fine allowed. They recently settled a federal criminal complaint for $900 million. They also had a thousand civil suits which are estimated to cost around $1.2 billion to settle.