8 ms·

There's no defense for what they did. I mean it's so silly it's the sort of thing you expect to be part of the evil guy's plans to destroy the world in a Bond f

There's no defense for what they did. I mean it's so silly it's the sort of thing you expect to be part of the evil guy's plans to destroy the world in a Bond film... not something that a stupid corporation actually does.

x5n1 11y ago
Especially not something a German corporation does.
- pionar 11y ago
  Care to elaborate what makes a German corporation so different?
  - jonknee 11y ago
    Stereotypically speaking, Germans love rules.
    - differentView 11y ago
      That only applies to the average citizen, not executives of large corporations. They have more in common with foreign corporate executives than with their own citizens.
  - pjmlp 11y ago
    Taking shortcuts instead of delivering quality is usually very badly seen.
    - PhantomGremlin 11y ago
      Taking shortcuts instead of delivering quality is usually very badly seen. The repair bills on my BMW are in contradiction to "delivering quality". The car instead appears to have been optimized for "delivering ongoing repair business" to the local dealership.
- kjjw 11y ago
  Yes out of character. German public will not be happy with VW.
  - jonknee 11y ago
    Especially when they see their investment statements!
- thrownaway2424 11y ago
  Haha what? I.G. Farben, Chemie Grünenthal, these are not German companies? Siemens, Ferrostaal bribing Greek politicians. H&K arming Mexican drug cartels. The modern German self-image is a lie.
  - vonmoltke 11y ago
    > H&K arming Mexican drug cartels. Huh? The cartels are using primarily AR and AK pattern rifles smuggled through the US or stolen from the Mexican government.
    - thrownaway2424 11y ago
      Now they are using H&K weapons. http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/unternehmen/waffenexport-ermittler-durchsuchen-bueros-von-heckler-koch-a-736036.html http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/unternehmen/waffenexport-er...
      - vonmoltke 11y ago
        First off, the sales happened between 2003 and 2011, so nothing has happened in at least 4 years. Plus, the 9500 rifles sold are a drop in the bucket compared to the Colt and Century Arms weapons in common use.[1] Second, the weapons in question were sold to local Mexican governments.[2] The investigation appears to stem from the German government not trusting all elements of the Mexican government to use the weapons responsibly. It was an attempt to dump thousands of rifles the German Army didn't want any more. Some subset of the rifles got in the hands of dirty Mexican cops and were either used by said cops in support of the cartels or stolen on behalf of them. The impact is minimal and HK is not supplying the drug cartels. [1] http://www.dw.com/en/german-arms-maker-heckler-koch-illegally-exported-rifles-to-mexico/a-18437977 http://www.dw.com/en/german-arms-maker-heckler-koch-illegall... [2] http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/08/03/us-mexico-germany-guns-idUSKCN0Q823V20150803 http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/08/03/us-mexico-germany-...
  - jazzyk 11y ago
    Why the downvotes? There is some truth to the above. Germany is NOT int the top 10 when it comes to business transparency. While certainly not bad (the US is even lower), its relatively low position (12th in 2014) on the list is surprising and does not quite fit the "impeccably honest" image of Germany some people have. https://www.transparency.org/country/#DEU https://www.transparency.org/country/#DEU
fla 11y ago
Totally agree. But I'm having a hard time believing anyone explicitely ordered to make such a device. It would get caught soon or later anyway, right? I fail to see how a big corp like this could not see the impact. Why take such a stupid risk?
- onewaystreet 11y ago
  Looking at past scandals like this it's usually the result of someone promising results that they can't deliver until they are faced with the career-ending choice of admitting their mistakes or committing fraud.
  - madez 11y ago
    But this was not done by one person. How can't someone who was developing that software report such an important issue to Wolfsburg?
    - onewaystreet 11y ago
      People will go along with things for a lot of reasons. Threats, bribery, the "I do what I'm told" mentality etc.
  - fla 11y ago
    This may sound crazy, but this reminds me the behavior of a self-optimizing system. Too many people work on little parts of it, nobody sees the big picture. Everybody applies the 'spec' blindly. At the end you get something that becomes very good at explotiing loopholes by 'itself'. It's a side effect. I mean, your sunday-afternoon genetic algorithm would do the same kind of things :)
    - vonmoltke 11y ago
      If no one has the big picture, systems engineering is not doing its job. Systems engineering is supposed to flow the top-level specs down to the various teams, If those teams have issues with their requirements, they flow that back up. That is, of course, easier said than done. I have had to deal with my share of unrealistic flow-downs and unsympathetic systems engineers. In this particular case at VW the most likely root cause was a team that had a flow-down they couldn't meet honestly and couldn't change, so they cheated their way around it.
tjic 11y ago
Sure there is. "We consider this law illegitimate and do not consent to be bound by it." You may not LIKE that defense, but it's a defense - pretty much the canonical anarchocapitalist one.
- SideburnsOfDoom 11y ago
  > "We consider this law illegitimate and do not consent to be bound by it." Which would be an astonishing statement to actually make, considering that air pollution kills people. It's basically singing the praises of corporate manslaughter. Even more so, given that anarchocapitalism isn't really popular in Germany any more.
- rdsnsca 11y ago
  To which the EPA will answer: "Your vehicles are no longer allowed to be sold in the US"
- 6stringmerc 11y ago
  Very well stated, and I agree a defense exists for the accused. Gaming tests and parameters doesn't seem too far fetched to me. In high school one class allowed for one 3x5" notecard to be brought to the final exam, and it could have notes written on it. Following the letter but not the spirit of the rule, I used a razor blade to gently split the notecard and was able to peel it open for about 70% more writing space. Though a technicality, I did manage to use my device with approval in that case.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 11y ago
    I don't really agree. Air pollution isn't like test notes at all, it kills people. If you had "Followed the letter but not the spirit of a rule" and wound up endangering people's health, do you honestly think there would be no repercussions other than a "haha, clever you! You can get away with it on a technicality this once" ?
    - 6stringmerc 11y ago

x5n1 11y ago

Especially not something a German corporation does.

pionar 11y ago
Care to elaborate what makes a German corporation so different?
- jonknee 11y ago
  Stereotypically speaking, Germans love rules.
  - differentView 11y ago
    That only applies to the average citizen, not executives of large corporations. They have more in common with foreign corporate executives than with their own citizens.
- pjmlp 11y ago
  Taking shortcuts instead of delivering quality is usually very badly seen.
  - PhantomGremlin 11y ago
    Taking shortcuts instead of delivering quality is usually very badly seen. The repair bills on my BMW are in contradiction to "delivering quality". The car instead appears to have been optimized for "delivering ongoing repair business" to the local dealership.
kjjw 11y ago
Yes out of character. German public will not be happy with VW.
- jonknee 11y ago
  Especially when they see their investment statements!
thrownaway2424 11y ago
Haha what? I.G. Farben, Chemie Grünenthal, these are not German companies? Siemens, Ferrostaal bribing Greek politicians. H&K arming Mexican drug cartels. The modern German self-image is a lie.
- vonmoltke 11y ago
  > H&K arming Mexican drug cartels. Huh? The cartels are using primarily AR and AK pattern rifles smuggled through the US or stolen from the Mexican government.
  - thrownaway2424 11y ago
    Now they are using H&K weapons. http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/unternehmen/waffenexport-ermittler-durchsuchen-bueros-von-heckler-koch-a-736036.html http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/unternehmen/waffenexport-er...
    - vonmoltke 11y ago
      First off, the sales happened between 2003 and 2011, so nothing has happened in at least 4 years. Plus, the 9500 rifles sold are a drop in the bucket compared to the Colt and Century Arms weapons in common use.[1] Second, the weapons in question were sold to local Mexican governments.[2] The investigation appears to stem from the German government not trusting all elements of the Mexican government to use the weapons responsibly. It was an attempt to dump thousands of rifles the German Army didn't want any more. Some subset of the rifles got in the hands of dirty Mexican cops and were either used by said cops in support of the cartels or stolen on behalf of them. The impact is minimal and HK is not supplying the drug cartels. [1] http://www.dw.com/en/german-arms-maker-heckler-koch-illegally-exported-rifles-to-mexico/a-18437977 http://www.dw.com/en/german-arms-maker-heckler-koch-illegall... [2] http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/08/03/us-mexico-germany-guns-idUSKCN0Q823V20150803 http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/08/03/us-mexico-germany-...
- jazzyk 11y ago
  Why the downvotes? There is some truth to the above. Germany is NOT int the top 10 when it comes to business transparency. While certainly not bad (the US is even lower), its relatively low position (12th in 2014) on the list is surprising and does not quite fit the "impeccably honest" image of Germany some people have. https://www.transparency.org/country/#DEU https://www.transparency.org/country/#DEU

fla 11y ago

Totally agree. But I'm having a hard time believing anyone explicitely ordered to make such a device. It would get caught soon or later anyway, right? I fail to see how a big corp like this could not see the impact. Why take such a stupid risk?

onewaystreet 11y ago
Looking at past scandals like this it's usually the result of someone promising results that they can't deliver until they are faced with the career-ending choice of admitting their mistakes or committing fraud.
- madez 11y ago
  But this was not done by one person. How can't someone who was developing that software report such an important issue to Wolfsburg?
  - onewaystreet 11y ago
    People will go along with things for a lot of reasons. Threats, bribery, the "I do what I'm told" mentality etc.
- fla 11y ago
  This may sound crazy, but this reminds me the behavior of a self-optimizing system. Too many people work on little parts of it, nobody sees the big picture. Everybody applies the 'spec' blindly. At the end you get something that becomes very good at explotiing loopholes by 'itself'. It's a side effect. I mean, your sunday-afternoon genetic algorithm would do the same kind of things :)
  - vonmoltke 11y ago
    If no one has the big picture, systems engineering is not doing its job. Systems engineering is supposed to flow the top-level specs down to the various teams, If those teams have issues with their requirements, they flow that back up. That is, of course, easier said than done. I have had to deal with my share of unrealistic flow-downs and unsympathetic systems engineers. In this particular case at VW the most likely root cause was a team that had a flow-down they couldn't meet honestly and couldn't change, so they cheated their way around it.

tjic 11y ago

Sure there is. "We consider this law illegitimate and do not consent to be bound by it." You may not LIKE that defense, but it's a defense - pretty much the canonical anarchocapitalist one.

SideburnsOfDoom 11y ago
> "We consider this law illegitimate and do not consent to be bound by it." Which would be an astonishing statement to actually make, considering that air pollution kills people. It's basically singing the praises of corporate manslaughter. Even more so, given that anarchocapitalism isn't really popular in Germany any more.
rdsnsca 11y ago
To which the EPA will answer: "Your vehicles are no longer allowed to be sold in the US"
6stringmerc 11y ago
Very well stated, and I agree a defense exists for the accused. Gaming tests and parameters doesn't seem too far fetched to me. In high school one class allowed for one 3x5" notecard to be brought to the final exam, and it could have notes written on it. Following the letter but not the spirit of the rule, I used a razor blade to gently split the notecard and was able to peel it open for about 70% more writing space. Though a technicality, I did manage to use my device with approval in that case.
- SideburnsOfDoom 11y ago
  I don't really agree. Air pollution isn't like test notes at all, it kills people. If you had "Followed the letter but not the spirit of a rule" and wound up endangering people's health, do you honestly think there would be no repercussions other than a "haha, clever you! You can get away with it on a technicality this once" ?
  - 6stringmerc 11y ago