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It is actually even worse. The US had the bomber mafia. But at least they were focused on the idea of hitting high-value industrial targets with daylight raids.

It is actually even worse. The US had the bomber mafia. But at least they were focused on the idea of hitting high-value industrial targets with daylight raids. If this had been carried out it would have removed the industrial capability of Germany. The British also had a bomber mafia. But they were obsessed with nighttime raids that just carpet bombed cities. These were safer for crews, but completely ineffective. They just destroyed cities and massacred civilians.

arethuza 11y ago
You are correct that the UK nighttime raids were safer - but worth noting that they weren't safe in an absolute sense - 44.4% of Bomber Command aircrews were killed in action.
richmarr 11y ago
> ... obsessed with nighttime raids that just carpet bombed cities The US and Britain agreement was to divide sorties in Europe into daytime (US) and nighttime (Britain), and pre-GPS accuracy at night pretty-much dictates aiming for vary large targets. The obsession came with Dresden, but that seems to be a different point to the one you were making.
- rjsw 11y ago
  The pre-GPS bombing accuracy during daytime isn't any better if it is a cloudy day, which happens more often in Europe than the western US where the USAAF had trained.
- hydrogen18 11y ago
  You are absolutely correct. But my point is the nighttime raids were not only a waste of resources, but they just killed civilians en masse. This didn't really do anything to change the war. Germany had no shortage of slave labor, so some dead civilians were just less mouths to feed. Britain would have been better off just not building those bombers and bombs. The resources could have been diverted into something else. Maybe fighter escorts for the daytime raids? I'm not trying to totally destroy the British contribution to the war. It is just that this policy of night time carpet bombing was totally misguided.
  - richmarr 11y ago
    Sure, I admit I mainly took exception to the wording, not the actual points raised. I disagree with you that RAF bombing achieved nothing though. Plenty of industrial facilities were destroyed, major dams, V2 rocket facilities, etc. If you lived in London then you'd probably be reasonably pleased by the destruction of a V2 facility, even if the long-term strategic difference was negligible. You have to understand that we Brits are quite used to our armed forces contribution being erased from history by Hollywood so can be a bit defensive about Americans making sweeping generalisations in this area. We will argue you down to the details.
    - hydrogen18 11y ago
      Using the V2 is a poor example, as that was a combined effort with both the British and the Americans. While Operation Crossbow it did achieve some of its goal, I can't find documentation that it was the RAF sorties that achieved damage to the V2 and its related infrastructure. I'm not terribly well versed in the history of the V2 during WWII, so I may just be missing it. The best thing the Brits did was use double-agents to send the Germans misinformation about where they were striking. They gradually convinced the Germans that the rockets were landing on the far side of London harmlessly. The physics behind the V2 at the time clearly placed it as striking London, but the misinformation essentially demanded changes in the engineering. London was still hit plenty though, so this intelligence campaign was not a total success. If this had actually been totally successful, the Brits might as well have helped Germany setup more V2 factories. Each V2 was extremely costly in terms of materials to produce. This removed available materials from the parts of the war effort that actually needed them.

arethuza 11y ago

You are correct that the UK nighttime raids were safer - but worth noting that they weren't safe in an absolute sense - 44.4% of Bomber Command aircrews were killed in action.

richmarr 11y ago

> ... obsessed with nighttime raids that just carpet bombed cities The US and Britain agreement was to divide sorties in Europe into daytime (US) and nighttime (Britain), and pre-GPS accuracy at night pretty-much dictates aiming for vary large targets. The obsession came with Dresden, but that seems to be a different point to the one you were making.

rjsw 11y ago
The pre-GPS bombing accuracy during daytime isn't any better if it is a cloudy day, which happens more often in Europe than the western US where the USAAF had trained.
hydrogen18 11y ago
You are absolutely correct. But my point is the nighttime raids were not only a waste of resources, but they just killed civilians en masse. This didn't really do anything to change the war. Germany had no shortage of slave labor, so some dead civilians were just less mouths to feed. Britain would have been better off just not building those bombers and bombs. The resources could have been diverted into something else. Maybe fighter escorts for the daytime raids? I'm not trying to totally destroy the British contribution to the war. It is just that this policy of night time carpet bombing was totally misguided.
- richmarr 11y ago
  Sure, I admit I mainly took exception to the wording, not the actual points raised. I disagree with you that RAF bombing achieved nothing though. Plenty of industrial facilities were destroyed, major dams, V2 rocket facilities, etc. If you lived in London then you'd probably be reasonably pleased by the destruction of a V2 facility, even if the long-term strategic difference was negligible. You have to understand that we Brits are quite used to our armed forces contribution being erased from history by Hollywood so can be a bit defensive about Americans making sweeping generalisations in this area. We will argue you down to the details.
  - hydrogen18 11y ago
    Using the V2 is a poor example, as that was a combined effort with both the British and the Americans. While Operation Crossbow it did achieve some of its goal, I can't find documentation that it was the RAF sorties that achieved damage to the V2 and its related infrastructure. I'm not terribly well versed in the history of the V2 during WWII, so I may just be missing it. The best thing the Brits did was use double-agents to send the Germans misinformation about where they were striking. They gradually convinced the Germans that the rockets were landing on the far side of London harmlessly. The physics behind the V2 at the time clearly placed it as striking London, but the misinformation essentially demanded changes in the engineering. London was still hit plenty though, so this intelligence campaign was not a total success. If this had actually been totally successful, the Brits might as well have helped Germany setup more V2 factories. Each V2 was extremely costly in terms of materials to produce. This removed available materials from the parts of the war effort that actually needed them.