3 ms·

I am amused by how effective nationalism is, when used to cloth motives that might be considered more base. (personally, I think greed is often less evil than

by lsc 11y ago

I am amused by how effective nationalism is, when used to cloth motives that might be considered more base. (personally, I think greed is often less evil than nationalism, but I'm a bit weird.) In this case, industry wants more programmers, but doesn't want to pay the wages that would make this happen in a free market.

aianus 11y ago
> In this case, industry wants more programmers, but doesn't want to pay the wages that would make this happen in a free market. I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Do you know someone who considered studying computer science but decided not to because the wages were too low? If not then how would increased wages increase supply?
- lsc 11y ago
  >I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Do you know someone who considered studying computer science but decided not to because the wages were too low? Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying happens. The thing you have to remember is that this isn't a choice between underwater basket weaving and computer science... you're competing for the top tier students. The people who would have gone into law, medicine, top-tier business or finance instead. And compared to those careers, programmers don't get paid very well at all. Even if some of them can't make it as programmers, certainly, some of them could. My own stereotypes are that while most of the business people I know lack the requisite gray matter, most of the people I know who studied law or medicine could have quite easily become programmers. (how many of them would switch for mere money? I don't know.) If working as a programmer paid more than being a business person, working in finance, being a lawyer or being a doctor, it wouldn't change everyone's mind, sure... but it certainly would change many minds.
  - aianus 11y ago
    > If working as a programmer paid more than being a business person, working in finance, being a lawyer or being a doctor Even if money is your only motivation programming is a better choice than any of those. Being a programmer makes you more money more quickly than any of those professions and has a higher ceiling to boot. How many billionaire lawyers and doctors are there? How many businesspeople, financiers, lawyers, or doctors make six figures at 22 years old? Not only that, it's also less risky! How many programmers are $250k in debt at 25 years old without having worked a day in their lives in their chosen professions? How many doctors? How many lawyers?
    - lsc 11y ago
      >Being a programmer makes you more money more quickly than any of those professions and has a higher ceiling to boot. How many billionaire lawyers and doctors are there? How many businesspeople, financiers, lawyers, or doctors make six figures at 22 years old? I agree on the first part. If you are optimizing for cash at 22, you are best off as a programmer. However, by the time you are 30? your doctor and lawyer friends are making 3x what you are. As for your ceiling argument, you are simply wrong. There are some programmers who made the jump to business person who have done very well but those people made their billions doing business, not programming. You can make a strong argument that if you want to be a business person today, you should first get training as an Engineer; many of the most ambitious MBAs I have met had an Engineering undergrad. That's valid, but they are still business people more than programmers. If you actually just want to be a programmer, you have to be world-class to make a quarter-million a year. I mean, I know some guys who do it... but they are absolutely incredible in ways that most of us simply couldn't be. For the rest of us, "six figures" means "we're going to peak around $150K/yr" - and that's only if we live in a place with incredibly high rent. Realistically, Doctors and Lawyers cap out much higher than Programmers. >Not only that, it's also less risky! How many programmers are $250k in debt at 25 years old without having worked a day in their lives in their chosen professions? How many doctors? How many lawyers? Eh, there are plenty of people who wash out of computer science programs. That's true of both doctors and lawyers; you do have a point that because doctor and lawyer training takes longer, you have the risk that if you wash out later in the process, you will have wasted a lot more money.
      - aianus 11y ago
        > You can make a strong argument that if you want to be a business person today, you should first get training as an Engineer It sounds like we're in violent agreement on this point. It's much, much easier to become a millionaire/billionaire if you can invent/write/build some kind of prototype yourself than by raising investment capital and finding/convincing others to build it for you. > Eh, there are plenty of people who wash out of computer science programs. That's true of both doctors and lawyers; you do have a point that because doctor and lawyer training takes longer, you have the risk that if you wash out later in the process, you will have wasted a lot more money. Not just that: If you're a mediocre programmer you can still make $50k working 9-5 writing enterprise Java CRUD apps. If you're a mediocre 'businessman' or lawyer you're working at Starbucks if at all.
  - rayiner 11y ago
    I don't know if that's true anymore. Programmers don't make finance money, but they make doctor or lawyer money (higher at the bottom end, maybe a bit lower at the top end). Programming has pulled far away from the low six figure ceiling that used to apply and still does in most engineering fields, even for people with elite qualifications.
    - lsc 11y ago
      see, this isn't my impression. do you have data? my impression is that $150K is the cap for us regular folks and world-class programmers can make in the low $200K range... if they are willing to live in one of the highest cost of living areas around. I mean, unless you are like the other person who was talking to me and are counting managers and business people who also have programming skills. But I count those as managers or business people, because they're getting paid as managers or business people for doing manager or business person jobs. My impression is that $300K is pretty middle of the road for doctors, even in lower cost of living areas. For lawyers, my impression was that the bottom half got shit, like less than we do, but the sky is the limit for the top half. My impression is that programmers were sort of the opposite of lawyers, in that our pay bands really are pretty narrow... there isn't even a doubling between the best and the average.

by lsc 11y ago

aianus 11y ago

> In this case, industry wants more programmers, but doesn't want to pay the wages that would make this happen in a free market. I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Do you know someone who considered studying computer science but decided not to because the wages were too low? If not then how would increased wages increase supply?

lsc 11y ago
>I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Do you know someone who considered studying computer science but decided not to because the wages were too low? Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying happens. The thing you have to remember is that this isn't a choice between underwater basket weaving and computer science... you're competing for the top tier students. The people who would have gone into law, medicine, top-tier business or finance instead. And compared to those careers, programmers don't get paid very well at all. Even if some of them can't make it as programmers, certainly, some of them could. My own stereotypes are that while most of the business people I know lack the requisite gray matter, most of the people I know who studied law or medicine could have quite easily become programmers. (how many of them would switch for mere money? I don't know.) If working as a programmer paid more than being a business person, working in finance, being a lawyer or being a doctor, it wouldn't change everyone's mind, sure... but it certainly would change many minds.
- aianus 11y ago
  > If working as a programmer paid more than being a business person, working in finance, being a lawyer or being a doctor Even if money is your only motivation programming is a better choice than any of those. Being a programmer makes you more money more quickly than any of those professions and has a higher ceiling to boot. How many billionaire lawyers and doctors are there? How many businesspeople, financiers, lawyers, or doctors make six figures at 22 years old? Not only that, it's also less risky! How many programmers are $250k in debt at 25 years old without having worked a day in their lives in their chosen professions? How many doctors? How many lawyers?
  - lsc 11y ago
    >Being a programmer makes you more money more quickly than any of those professions and has a higher ceiling to boot. How many billionaire lawyers and doctors are there? How many businesspeople, financiers, lawyers, or doctors make six figures at 22 years old? I agree on the first part. If you are optimizing for cash at 22, you are best off as a programmer. However, by the time you are 30? your doctor and lawyer friends are making 3x what you are. As for your ceiling argument, you are simply wrong. There are some programmers who made the jump to business person who have done very well but those people made their billions doing business, not programming. You can make a strong argument that if you want to be a business person today, you should first get training as an Engineer; many of the most ambitious MBAs I have met had an Engineering undergrad. That's valid, but they are still business people more than programmers. If you actually just want to be a programmer, you have to be world-class to make a quarter-million a year. I mean, I know some guys who do it... but they are absolutely incredible in ways that most of us simply couldn't be. For the rest of us, "six figures" means "we're going to peak around $150K/yr" - and that's only if we live in a place with incredibly high rent. Realistically, Doctors and Lawyers cap out much higher than Programmers. >Not only that, it's also less risky! How many programmers are $250k in debt at 25 years old without having worked a day in their lives in their chosen professions? How many doctors? How many lawyers? Eh, there are plenty of people who wash out of computer science programs. That's true of both doctors and lawyers; you do have a point that because doctor and lawyer training takes longer, you have the risk that if you wash out later in the process, you will have wasted a lot more money.
    - aianus 11y ago
      > You can make a strong argument that if you want to be a business person today, you should first get training as an Engineer It sounds like we're in violent agreement on this point. It's much, much easier to become a millionaire/billionaire if you can invent/write/build some kind of prototype yourself than by raising investment capital and finding/convincing others to build it for you. > Eh, there are plenty of people who wash out of computer science programs. That's true of both doctors and lawyers; you do have a point that because doctor and lawyer training takes longer, you have the risk that if you wash out later in the process, you will have wasted a lot more money. Not just that: If you're a mediocre programmer you can still make $50k working 9-5 writing enterprise Java CRUD apps. If you're a mediocre 'businessman' or lawyer you're working at Starbucks if at all.
- rayiner 11y ago
  I don't know if that's true anymore. Programmers don't make finance money, but they make doctor or lawyer money (higher at the bottom end, maybe a bit lower at the top end). Programming has pulled far away from the low six figure ceiling that used to apply and still does in most engineering fields, even for people with elite qualifications.
  - lsc 11y ago
    see, this isn't my impression. do you have data? my impression is that $150K is the cap for us regular folks and world-class programmers can make in the low $200K range... if they are willing to live in one of the highest cost of living areas around. I mean, unless you are like the other person who was talking to me and are counting managers and business people who also have programming skills. But I count those as managers or business people, because they're getting paid as managers or business people for doing manager or business person jobs. My impression is that $300K is pretty middle of the road for doctors, even in lower cost of living areas. For lawyers, my impression was that the bottom half got shit, like less than we do, but the sky is the limit for the top half. My impression is that programmers were sort of the opposite of lawyers, in that our pay bands really are pretty narrow... there isn't even a doubling between the best and the average.