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I was really surprised when Congress decided to make it very hard or almost impossible to discharge Student Loan debt through bankruptcy while forgiving other t

by gjkood 11y ago

I was really surprised when Congress decided to make it very hard or almost impossible to discharge Student Loan debt through bankruptcy while forgiving other types of debt. This fact in addition to the fleecing of the nation's youth by the For-Profit Colleges has given a really bad impression about going to college. The best thing a nation can do for its future is to encourage (and make it easy) for students to get the best education that they can. You can bet that India and China are investing heavily in their nation's youth and encouraging STEM based higher education. They understand that this is of strategic importance.

lsc 11y ago
I am amused by how effective nationalism is, when used to cloth motives that might be considered more base. (personally, I think greed is often less evil than nationalism, but I'm a bit weird.) In this case, industry wants more programmers, but doesn't want to pay the wages that would make this happen in a free market.
- aianus 11y ago
  > In this case, industry wants more programmers, but doesn't want to pay the wages that would make this happen in a free market. I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Do you know someone who considered studying computer science but decided not to because the wages were too low? If not then how would increased wages increase supply?
  - lsc 11y ago
    >I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Do you know someone who considered studying computer science but decided not to because the wages were too low? Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying happens. The thing you have to remember is that this isn't a choice between underwater basket weaving and computer science... you're competing for the top tier students. The people who would have gone into law, medicine, top-tier business or finance instead. And compared to those careers, programmers don't get paid very well at all. Even if some of them can't make it as programmers, certainly, some of them could. My own stereotypes are that while most of the business people I know lack the requisite gray matter, most of the people I know who studied law or medicine could have quite easily become programmers. (how many of them would switch for mere money? I don't know.) If working as a programmer paid more than being a business person, working in finance, being a lawyer or being a doctor, it wouldn't change everyone's mind, sure... but it certainly would change many minds.
    - aianus 11y ago
      > If working as a programmer paid more than being a business person, working in finance, being a lawyer or being a doctor Even if money is your only motivation programming is a better choice than any of those. Being a programmer makes you more money more quickly than any of those professions and has a higher ceiling to boot. How many billionaire lawyers and doctors are there? How many businesspeople, financiers, lawyers, or doctors make six figures at 22 years old? Not only that, it's also less risky! How many programmers are $250k in debt at 25 years old without having worked a day in their lives in their chosen professions? How many doctors? How many lawyers?
      - lsc 11y ago
        >Being a programmer makes you more money more quickly than any of those professions and has a higher ceiling to boot. How many billionaire lawyers and doctors are there? How many businesspeople, financiers, lawyers, or doctors make six figures at 22 years old? I agree on the first part. If you are optimizing for cash at 22, you are best off as a programmer. However, by the time you are 30? your doctor and lawyer friends are making 3x what you are. As for your ceiling argument, you are simply wrong. There are some programmers who made the jump to business person who have done very well but those people made their billions doing business, not programming. You can make a strong argument that if you want to be a business person today, you should first get training as an Engineer; many of the most ambitious MBAs I have met had an Engineering undergrad. That's valid, but they are still business people more than programmers. If you actually just want to be a programmer, you have to be world-class to make a quarter-million a year. I mean, I know some guys who do it... but they are absolutely incredible in ways that most of us simply couldn't be. For the rest of us, "six figures" means "we're going to peak around $150K/yr" - and that's only if we live in a place with incredibly high rent. Realistically, Doctors and Lawyers cap out much higher than Programmers. >Not only that, it's also less risky! How many programmers are $250k in debt at 25 years old without having worked a day in their lives in their chosen professions? How many doctors? How many lawyers? Eh, there are plenty of people who wash out of computer science programs. That's true of both doctors and lawyers; you do have a point that because doctor and lawyer training takes longer, you have the risk that if you wash out later in the process, you will have wasted a lot more money.

by gjkood 11y ago

lsc 11y ago

I am amused by how effective nationalism is, when used to cloth motives that might be considered more base. (personally, I think greed is often less evil than nationalism, but I'm a bit weird.) In this case, industry wants more programmers, but doesn't want to pay the wages that would make this happen in a free market.

aianus 11y ago
> In this case, industry wants more programmers, but doesn't want to pay the wages that would make this happen in a free market. I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Do you know someone who considered studying computer science but decided not to because the wages were too low? If not then how would increased wages increase supply?
- lsc 11y ago
  >I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Do you know someone who considered studying computer science but decided not to because the wages were too low? Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying happens. The thing you have to remember is that this isn't a choice between underwater basket weaving and computer science... you're competing for the top tier students. The people who would have gone into law, medicine, top-tier business or finance instead. And compared to those careers, programmers don't get paid very well at all. Even if some of them can't make it as programmers, certainly, some of them could. My own stereotypes are that while most of the business people I know lack the requisite gray matter, most of the people I know who studied law or medicine could have quite easily become programmers. (how many of them would switch for mere money? I don't know.) If working as a programmer paid more than being a business person, working in finance, being a lawyer or being a doctor, it wouldn't change everyone's mind, sure... but it certainly would change many minds.
  - aianus 11y ago
    > If working as a programmer paid more than being a business person, working in finance, being a lawyer or being a doctor Even if money is your only motivation programming is a better choice than any of those. Being a programmer makes you more money more quickly than any of those professions and has a higher ceiling to boot. How many billionaire lawyers and doctors are there? How many businesspeople, financiers, lawyers, or doctors make six figures at 22 years old? Not only that, it's also less risky! How many programmers are $250k in debt at 25 years old without having worked a day in their lives in their chosen professions? How many doctors? How many lawyers?
    - lsc 11y ago
      >Being a programmer makes you more money more quickly than any of those professions and has a higher ceiling to boot. How many billionaire lawyers and doctors are there? How many businesspeople, financiers, lawyers, or doctors make six figures at 22 years old? I agree on the first part. If you are optimizing for cash at 22, you are best off as a programmer. However, by the time you are 30? your doctor and lawyer friends are making 3x what you are. As for your ceiling argument, you are simply wrong. There are some programmers who made the jump to business person who have done very well but those people made their billions doing business, not programming. You can make a strong argument that if you want to be a business person today, you should first get training as an Engineer; many of the most ambitious MBAs I have met had an Engineering undergrad. That's valid, but they are still business people more than programmers. If you actually just want to be a programmer, you have to be world-class to make a quarter-million a year. I mean, I know some guys who do it... but they are absolutely incredible in ways that most of us simply couldn't be. For the rest of us, "six figures" means "we're going to peak around $150K/yr" - and that's only if we live in a place with incredibly high rent. Realistically, Doctors and Lawyers cap out much higher than Programmers. >Not only that, it's also less risky! How many programmers are $250k in debt at 25 years old without having worked a day in their lives in their chosen professions? How many doctors? How many lawyers? Eh, there are plenty of people who wash out of computer science programs. That's true of both doctors and lawyers; you do have a point that because doctor and lawyer training takes longer, you have the risk that if you wash out later in the process, you will have wasted a lot more money.