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I think this is a good move, but I'm worried that people will understand it as "education is useless, I should go work". The problem here is very obviously tha

I think this is a good move, but I'm worried that people will understand it as "education is useless, I should go work". The problem here is very obviously that most educational systems are completely broken. The american one maybe the most, since it's so "famous". I come from France, I had a better education than you can get probably anywhere in the world (I went to les Mines de Paris, roughly equivalent to the top 10% of MIT), and EVERYTHING, since I was 5 years old, was free and based on merit. This leads to people with degrees actually being much more performant in the workplace. I am 100% sure this study would have opposite results in France, as it is very easy to look at what the alumni of my school go to become. People, education is primordial, paying for education is a sin that brings all this shit out. Someone needs to fix this, and probably no one will in my lifetime in america, it is very sad

learnstats2 11y ago
I understand it that E&Y's priorities are not with successfully educated candidates. Who can easily get onto degree courses (but may not be successful there), and then easily be coached through online tests? One type of person: rich people with connections.
- lmm 11y ago
  Depends very much on the course, I think, and the university. I was the only kid from my high school applying to Cambridge, and what prep they gave me was quite misguided, but I don't think it's possible to fake the process (in-person, test with ten hard problems (not requiring any knowledge outside the standard high school course, just more problem-solving ability) where you're not expected to solve more than two or three, then discussing them with your interviewers). I felt like there was some of what you describe with the people I met in humanities courses (of course you can attribute some of that to STEM snobbery), but on the side I saw, once you applied (and sure, I suspect there are people with the ability but without the wealth or connections who are too intimidated to apply), they wanted the best, and I'm sure they got them.
  - learnstats2 11y ago
    I got a place after my state school simply advised me not to bother applying. Independent schools don't give such misguided advice. 33% of Cambridge students (today) come from the 7% independent sector, with privilege evident at every level: independent candidates far more likely to apply, independent candidates still more likely to be offered a place upon application. I don't have the data about the results but I suspect this trend reverses.
pdabbadabba 11y ago
Glad to hear you're happy with your education in France. But... First: The article is about the U.K., not the U.S., so I'm not sure why you're bemoaning the state of U.S. education here. Second: >I come from France, I had a better education than you can get probably anywhere in the world (I went to les Mines de Paris, roughly equivalent to the top 10% of MIT), and EVERYTHING, since I was 5 years old, was free and based on merit. This leads to people with degrees actually being much more performant in the workplace. I am 100% sure this study would have opposite results in France, as it is very easy to look at what the alumni of my school go to become. This is not very persuasive. One could run the same line of argument about American (or Chinese, or British, etc.) universities, since in the U.S., like France and most other places, it remains the case that college graduates earn much more than their peers without college education, and even more so (sometimes dramatically) at elite universities. But apparently this just doesn't necessarily translate into success at Ernst & Young.
- achamayou 11y ago
  It's particularly weak since there is a significant network effect in Les grandes ecoles, having much smaller classes than US-style universities. Not all of the benefits of having been to one are down to the quality of the curriculum, In any case I think it's foolish to read too much into this. Large corporations try a lot of things, and they don't always work out for the best. If E&Y really finds that it improves the quality of their workforce and their competitors follow suit, it will be interesting, but until then it's just an experiment.
parennoob 11y ago
> I come from France, I had a better education than you can get probably anywhere in the world (I went to les Mines de Paris, roughly equivalent to the top 10% of MIT) What is it about French Universities that makes them so exceptional? I ask because I've heard this "I come from a French University, and it is reaaaally good" refrain from a lot of French people – but I haven't seen that many exceptional performance amongst them. [I should say though, I have met some really great and hard-working French university graduates, so the overall level is definitely quite good.]
- enqk 11y ago
  He's not even talking about an university and rather about a selective public college that only selects few people. Its selection is elitist and surprise, people who come out of it are good + have a good network. I'd say there's a strong selecition bias there.
- pdabbadabba 11y ago
  I suspect that, much like the U.S., the French simply have grown accustomed to seeing themselves as having the best education in the world. So when I read comments like this, I just tell myself that this must be what it's like all the time for people in other countries hearing Americans bragging about the U.S. As for the evidence that one system is better than the other, I think I'll stay out of that one, other than to say that I don't know how you would reliably measure this objectively except by looking at a ranking that attempts capture programs' reputations among employers in the field. Even this will, of course, exhibit some form of national bias, though interestingly the most well-known ranking, U.S. News and World Report ranks many Chinese universities very highly, which might suggest that their national bias isn't too extreme. And then there is the problem of controlling for differences in population, etc.
  - parennoob 11y ago
    > I suspect that, much like the U.S., the French simply have grown accustomed to seeing themselves as having the best education in the world. So when I read comments like this, I just tell myself that this must be what it's like all the time for people in other countries hearing Americans bragging about the U.S. In my experience (not American, though I work in the US), that isn't usually the case in the tech field. I've almost never heard Americans bragging about how good or exclusive their school is. Now there is a lot of mystique about being from the Ivy League in the US, but it is usually confined to status and social connections within the US ("ooooh, he went to Harvard and the Yale for grad school, must have connections") rather than being compared worldwide. Maybe this is what you mean by "bragging about the US"?

learnstats2 11y ago

I understand it that E&Y's priorities are not with successfully educated candidates. Who can easily get onto degree courses (but may not be successful there), and then easily be coached through online tests? One type of person: rich people with connections.

lmm 11y ago
Depends very much on the course, I think, and the university. I was the only kid from my high school applying to Cambridge, and what prep they gave me was quite misguided, but I don't think it's possible to fake the process (in-person, test with ten hard problems (not requiring any knowledge outside the standard high school course, just more problem-solving ability) where you're not expected to solve more than two or three, then discussing them with your interviewers). I felt like there was some of what you describe with the people I met in humanities courses (of course you can attribute some of that to STEM snobbery), but on the side I saw, once you applied (and sure, I suspect there are people with the ability but without the wealth or connections who are too intimidated to apply), they wanted the best, and I'm sure they got them.
- learnstats2 11y ago
  I got a place after my state school simply advised me not to bother applying. Independent schools don't give such misguided advice. 33% of Cambridge students (today) come from the 7% independent sector, with privilege evident at every level: independent candidates far more likely to apply, independent candidates still more likely to be offered a place upon application. I don't have the data about the results but I suspect this trend reverses.

pdabbadabba 11y ago

Glad to hear you're happy with your education in France. But... First: The article is about the U.K., not the U.S., so I'm not sure why you're bemoaning the state of U.S. education here. Second: >I come from France, I had a better education than you can get probably anywhere in the world (I went to les Mines de Paris, roughly equivalent to the top 10% of MIT), and EVERYTHING, since I was 5 years old, was free and based on merit. This leads to people with degrees actually being much more performant in the workplace. I am 100% sure this study would have opposite results in France, as it is very easy to look at what the alumni of my school go to become. This is not very persuasive. One could run the same line of argument about American (or Chinese, or British, etc.) universities, since in the U.S., like France and most other places, it remains the case that college graduates earn much more than their peers without college education, and even more so (sometimes dramatically) at elite universities. But apparently this just doesn't necessarily translate into success at Ernst & Young.

achamayou 11y ago
It's particularly weak since there is a significant network effect in Les grandes ecoles, having much smaller classes than US-style universities. Not all of the benefits of having been to one are down to the quality of the curriculum, In any case I think it's foolish to read too much into this. Large corporations try a lot of things, and they don't always work out for the best. If E&Y really finds that it improves the quality of their workforce and their competitors follow suit, it will be interesting, but until then it's just an experiment.

parennoob 11y ago

> I come from France, I had a better education than you can get probably anywhere in the world (I went to les Mines de Paris, roughly equivalent to the top 10% of MIT) What is it about French Universities that makes them so exceptional? I ask because I've heard this "I come from a French University, and it is reaaaally good" refrain from a lot of French people – but I haven't seen that many exceptional performance amongst them. [I should say though, I have met some really great and hard-working French university graduates, so the overall level is definitely quite good.]

enqk 11y ago
He's not even talking about an university and rather about a selective public college that only selects few people. Its selection is elitist and surprise, people who come out of it are good + have a good network. I'd say there's a strong selecition bias there.
pdabbadabba 11y ago
I suspect that, much like the U.S., the French simply have grown accustomed to seeing themselves as having the best education in the world. So when I read comments like this, I just tell myself that this must be what it's like all the time for people in other countries hearing Americans bragging about the U.S. As for the evidence that one system is better than the other, I think I'll stay out of that one, other than to say that I don't know how you would reliably measure this objectively except by looking at a ranking that attempts capture programs' reputations among employers in the field. Even this will, of course, exhibit some form of national bias, though interestingly the most well-known ranking, U.S. News and World Report ranks many Chinese universities very highly, which might suggest that their national bias isn't too extreme. And then there is the problem of controlling for differences in population, etc.
- parennoob 11y ago
  > I suspect that, much like the U.S., the French simply have grown accustomed to seeing themselves as having the best education in the world. So when I read comments like this, I just tell myself that this must be what it's like all the time for people in other countries hearing Americans bragging about the U.S. In my experience (not American, though I work in the US), that isn't usually the case in the tech field. I've almost never heard Americans bragging about how good or exclusive their school is. Now there is a lot of mystique about being from the Ivy League in the US, but it is usually confined to status and social connections within the US ("ooooh, he went to Harvard and the Yale for grad school, must have connections") rather than being compared worldwide. Maybe this is what you mean by "bragging about the US"?