4 ms·

Oh, I don't know - it just depends on what your kids want to do. I think it's sad that we've reached a point where you're expected to have a four year degree,

by rcurry 11y ago

Oh, I don't know - it just depends on what your kids want to do. I think it's sad that we've reached a point where you're expected to have a four year degree, and $80k of debt in order to get a job as a receptionist or a barista.

Myrmornis 11y ago
> I think it's sad that we've reached a point where you're expected to have a four year degree, and $80k of debt in order to get a job as a receptionist or a barista. (a) They can become a receptionist or barista once they've definitively proved to themselves that they can't get a degree and do something more fulfilling, intellectually stimulating and ultimately likely to lead them to lives with more freedom and time to devote to their own projects. (b) The 80k debt is a problem with the USA, not nearly so much with developed countries elsewhere. I expect you'd agree with this but it shouldn't be a reason not to go to university; the USA just needs to get away from making people pay so much for their education and healthcare. (The article was about the UK). I work in the USA and I've just got back from traveling in Indonesia for a couple of weeks. It was really sad to see that all the people we met traveling were from Europe and none from the USA: I think a large part of this is that young Americans go into debt for college and think that they can't afford to travel, and thus don't become as familiar with other cultures.
- gjkood 11y ago
  I was really surprised when Congress decided to make it very hard or almost impossible to discharge Student Loan debt through bankruptcy while forgiving other types of debt. This fact in addition to the fleecing of the nation's youth by the For-Profit Colleges has given a really bad impression about going to college. The best thing a nation can do for its future is to encourage (and make it easy) for students to get the best education that they can. You can bet that India and China are investing heavily in their nation's youth and encouraging STEM based higher education. They understand that this is of strategic importance.
  - lsc 11y ago
    I am amused by how effective nationalism is, when used to cloth motives that might be considered more base. (personally, I think greed is often less evil than nationalism, but I'm a bit weird.) In this case, industry wants more programmers, but doesn't want to pay the wages that would make this happen in a free market.
    - aianus 11y ago
      > In this case, industry wants more programmers, but doesn't want to pay the wages that would make this happen in a free market. I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Do you know someone who considered studying computer science but decided not to because the wages were too low? If not then how would increased wages increase supply?
      - lsc 11y ago
        >I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Do you know someone who considered studying computer science but decided not to because the wages were too low? Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying happens. The thing you have to remember is that this isn't a choice between underwater basket weaving and computer science... you're competing for the top tier students. The people who would have gone into law, medicine, top-tier business or finance instead. And compared to those careers, programmers don't get paid very well at all. Even if some of them can't make it as programmers, certainly, some of them could. My own stereotypes are that while most of the business people I know lack the requisite gray matter, most of the people I know who studied law or medicine could have quite easily become programmers. (how many of them would switch for mere money? I don't know.) If working as a programmer paid more than being a business person, working in finance, being a lawyer or being a doctor, it wouldn't change everyone's mind, sure... but it certainly would change many minds.
        aianus 11y ago
        > If working as a programmer paid more than being a business person, working in finance, being a lawyer or being a doctor Even if money is your only motivation programming is a better choice than any of those. Being a programmer makes you more money more quickly than any of those professions and has a higher ceiling to boot. How many billionaire lawyers and doctors are there? How many businesspeople, financiers, lawyers, or doctors make six figures at 22 years old? Not only that, it's also less risky! How many programmers are $250k in debt at 25 years old without having worked a day in their lives in their chosen professions? How many doctors? How many lawyers?
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- deleted 11y ago
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- 6d0debc071 11y ago
  > (a) They can become a receptionist or barista once they've definitively proved to themselves that they can't get a degree and do something more fulfilling, intellectually stimulating and ultimately likely to lead them to lives with more freedom and time to devote to their own projects. It's entirely possible to be intellectually capable of passing a degree, and even to force one's self to do it, but be utterly unsuited for the sort of work that it equips you for. More to the point, it's reasonable to expect people to know that about themselves before they go, school work is not that dissimilar to university work. If you're struggling to get through a degree, having to really force yourself to do the work, I question whether you're likely to find what it enables you to do more fulfilling or intellectually stimulating. What possible reason would you have to believe that continuing to do something that makes you miserable will make you happy if you end up in a job where those skills are relevant? It is possible to be smart but uninspired. And the down side of people telling you not to give up, that this roll of the dice will pay off even if the others didn't, is the gambler at the table as morning rolls in, holding his last five dollars in the world. This has never worked out before, but now... College isn't for everyone, and many will know long before they go whether they enjoy the sort of work they're likely to do there. They can go later, when and if they discover a passion it would have value to. In the absence of such, their going is a waste of time and money whether or not they pass.
hdctambien 11y ago
I got out of college 11 years ago without nearly that much debt. I had loans for a little over $16,000 for In-State tuition to a state school. But I just checked, and now it costs over $100,000 for 4 years there. That's insane.
Spooky23 11y ago
Is an easy way to avoid being called on discriminatory practices.

by rcurry 11y ago

Myrmornis 11y ago

> I think it's sad that we've reached a point where you're expected to have a four year degree, and $80k of debt in order to get a job as a receptionist or a barista. (a) They can become a receptionist or barista once they've definitively proved to themselves that they can't get a degree and do something more fulfilling, intellectually stimulating and ultimately likely to lead them to lives with more freedom and time to devote to their own projects. (b) The 80k debt is a problem with the USA, not nearly so much with developed countries elsewhere. I expect you'd agree with this but it shouldn't be a reason not to go to university; the USA just needs to get away from making people pay so much for their education and healthcare. (The article was about the UK). I work in the USA and I've just got back from traveling in Indonesia for a couple of weeks. It was really sad to see that all the people we met traveling were from Europe and none from the USA: I think a large part of this is that young Americans go into debt for college and think that they can't afford to travel, and thus don't become as familiar with other cultures.

gjkood 11y ago
I was really surprised when Congress decided to make it very hard or almost impossible to discharge Student Loan debt through bankruptcy while forgiving other types of debt. This fact in addition to the fleecing of the nation's youth by the For-Profit Colleges has given a really bad impression about going to college. The best thing a nation can do for its future is to encourage (and make it easy) for students to get the best education that they can. You can bet that India and China are investing heavily in their nation's youth and encouraging STEM based higher education. They understand that this is of strategic importance.
- lsc 11y ago
  I am amused by how effective nationalism is, when used to cloth motives that might be considered more base. (personally, I think greed is often less evil than nationalism, but I'm a bit weird.) In this case, industry wants more programmers, but doesn't want to pay the wages that would make this happen in a free market.
  - aianus 11y ago
    > In this case, industry wants more programmers, but doesn't want to pay the wages that would make this happen in a free market. I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Do you know someone who considered studying computer science but decided not to because the wages were too low? If not then how would increased wages increase supply?
    - lsc 11y ago
      >I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Do you know someone who considered studying computer science but decided not to because the wages were too low? Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying happens. The thing you have to remember is that this isn't a choice between underwater basket weaving and computer science... you're competing for the top tier students. The people who would have gone into law, medicine, top-tier business or finance instead. And compared to those careers, programmers don't get paid very well at all. Even if some of them can't make it as programmers, certainly, some of them could. My own stereotypes are that while most of the business people I know lack the requisite gray matter, most of the people I know who studied law or medicine could have quite easily become programmers. (how many of them would switch for mere money? I don't know.) If working as a programmer paid more than being a business person, working in finance, being a lawyer or being a doctor, it wouldn't change everyone's mind, sure... but it certainly would change many minds.
      - aianus 11y ago
        > If working as a programmer paid more than being a business person, working in finance, being a lawyer or being a doctor Even if money is your only motivation programming is a better choice than any of those. Being a programmer makes you more money more quickly than any of those professions and has a higher ceiling to boot. How many billionaire lawyers and doctors are there? How many businesspeople, financiers, lawyers, or doctors make six figures at 22 years old? Not only that, it's also less risky! How many programmers are $250k in debt at 25 years old without having worked a day in their lives in their chosen professions? How many doctors? How many lawyers?
deleted 11y ago
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deleted 11y ago
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6d0debc071 11y ago
> (a) They can become a receptionist or barista once they've definitively proved to themselves that they can't get a degree and do something more fulfilling, intellectually stimulating and ultimately likely to lead them to lives with more freedom and time to devote to their own projects. It's entirely possible to be intellectually capable of passing a degree, and even to force one's self to do it, but be utterly unsuited for the sort of work that it equips you for. More to the point, it's reasonable to expect people to know that about themselves before they go, school work is not that dissimilar to university work. If you're struggling to get through a degree, having to really force yourself to do the work, I question whether you're likely to find what it enables you to do more fulfilling or intellectually stimulating. What possible reason would you have to believe that continuing to do something that makes you miserable will make you happy if you end up in a job where those skills are relevant? It is possible to be smart but uninspired. And the down side of people telling you not to give up, that this roll of the dice will pay off even if the others didn't, is the gambler at the table as morning rolls in, holding his last five dollars in the world. This has never worked out before, but now... College isn't for everyone, and many will know long before they go whether they enjoy the sort of work they're likely to do there. They can go later, when and if they discover a passion it would have value to. In the absence of such, their going is a waste of time and money whether or not they pass.

hdctambien 11y ago

I got out of college 11 years ago without nearly that much debt. I had loans for a little over $16,000 for In-State tuition to a state school. But I just checked, and now it costs over $100,000 for 4 years there. That's insane.

Spooky23 11y ago

Is an easy way to avoid being called on discriminatory practices.