3 ms·

My reply is not intended to insult anyone associated with the Big 4/5 firms. In my experience, the model is to get one or two really smart people into the clie

by gjkood 11y ago

My reply is not intended to insult anyone associated with the Big 4/5 firms. In my experience, the model is to get one or two really smart people into the client and then a boatload of rookies to pump up the billing machine. Every client is a training on the job experience for the rookies.

erics32 11y ago
This has been my experience as well at PWC. There are one or two seniors on the team while the rest of the team is staffed with interns/new associates/coop students.
_pmf_ 11y ago
cough IBM cough
Havoc 11y ago
You don't sound particularly impressed. Despite you're misgivings about the rookies, these firms have effectively rolled the old master & apprentice system forward into the 21st century. The billing machine you mention is also not quite right. In practice the vast majority of the fees negotiated up front (often on tender basis) & driven by hours only on paper. So effectively the Big 4 firm loses money if there are freeloader rookies on board (revenue stays the same, staff costs go up).
- gjkood 11y ago
  I can definitely understand the value of a Big 4 firm when it comes to accounting/auditing. It is the IT Consultancy part that I have concerns with. I understand the value of the Master & Apprentice model. However I would rather not pay for the Apprentice's training myself. I know there was a push for separating the Accounting/Auditing side from the IT consultancy side after the Enron and related scandals but they have probably coalesced back together.
  - Havoc 11y ago
    >However I would rather not pay for the Apprentice's training myself. No more than any other business model that has people learning on the job - I'm tempted to say less as the process is designed from top to bottom to deal with & compensate for people learning on the job. The more junior people come with much lower cost so there is actually a lot of pressure on those "one or two really smart people" you mentioned (aka seniors) to drive effective utilisation of the rookies. This also means people start of being told "do this" monkey fashion...but then very quickly (<3 years) progress to a position where you're expected to demonstrate real world leadership over sizable teams in a client facing capacity. Its far from perfect, but its a system that pumps out an incredible amount of young people that went through a trial-by-fire education in real world business & walked away with solid skills. >It is the IT Consultancy part that I have concerns with. Not something I can specifically comment on to be honest I've seen fairly little of that (saw some cool real time cyber attack monitoring stuff though - which caught me by surprise). As I see it all the professions (Law, IT, Accounting etc) are always trying to eat each other's lunch so there will be uncomfortable moves into someone else's territory. (And be judged as unqualified by the incumbent) >they have probably coalesced back together. It'll depend on the firm in question. From personal experience - on the ground the divisions (Accounting vs advisory) are pretty cliquey in my experience even if they are supposedly "together" from a legal perspective. Kinda like a programmer would have to make a very real effort to get transferred to sales/finance/HR department in the average company...they're different tribes.

by gjkood 11y ago

erics32 11y ago

This has been my experience as well at PWC. There are one or two seniors on the team while the rest of the team is staffed with interns/new associates/coop students.

_pmf_ 11y ago

cough IBM cough

Havoc 11y ago

You don't sound particularly impressed. Despite you're misgivings about the rookies, these firms have effectively rolled the old master & apprentice system forward into the 21st century. The billing machine you mention is also not quite right. In practice the vast majority of the fees negotiated up front (often on tender basis) & driven by hours only on paper. So effectively the Big 4 firm loses money if there are freeloader rookies on board (revenue stays the same, staff costs go up).

gjkood 11y ago
I can definitely understand the value of a Big 4 firm when it comes to accounting/auditing. It is the IT Consultancy part that I have concerns with. I understand the value of the Master & Apprentice model. However I would rather not pay for the Apprentice's training myself. I know there was a push for separating the Accounting/Auditing side from the IT consultancy side after the Enron and related scandals but they have probably coalesced back together.
- Havoc 11y ago
  >However I would rather not pay for the Apprentice's training myself. No more than any other business model that has people learning on the job - I'm tempted to say less as the process is designed from top to bottom to deal with & compensate for people learning on the job. The more junior people come with much lower cost so there is actually a lot of pressure on those "one or two really smart people" you mentioned (aka seniors) to drive effective utilisation of the rookies. This also means people start of being told "do this" monkey fashion...but then very quickly (<3 years) progress to a position where you're expected to demonstrate real world leadership over sizable teams in a client facing capacity. Its far from perfect, but its a system that pumps out an incredible amount of young people that went through a trial-by-fire education in real world business & walked away with solid skills. >It is the IT Consultancy part that I have concerns with. Not something I can specifically comment on to be honest I've seen fairly little of that (saw some cool real time cyber attack monitoring stuff though - which caught me by surprise). As I see it all the professions (Law, IT, Accounting etc) are always trying to eat each other's lunch so there will be uncomfortable moves into someone else's territory. (And be judged as unqualified by the incumbent) >they have probably coalesced back together. It'll depend on the firm in question. From personal experience - on the ground the divisions (Accounting vs advisory) are pretty cliquey in my experience even if they are supposedly "together" from a legal perspective. Kinda like a programmer would have to make a very real effort to get transferred to sales/finance/HR department in the average company...they're different tribes.